Stop killing the doe

[Bernie M]

Yes the 3 on one side is a great rule and i have seen nicer deer taken in last 5 years. The big problem is that in PA doe season goes all through buck season and the doe aren't around like they were since they changed it. I hunt in centre county PA for rifle season and the year they changed it a local friend up there used to count shots that he would hear opening day with a clicker counter. Now keep in mind there tons of hunters in that area but it went from 200-300 shots opening day to 1500 shot just on opening day.On any given day while in my stand i would see 15-50 deer a day.Now 15 deer in a day would be a busy day. I talk to guys that hunt all over the state and they are saying the same thing. the PA game commition has to stop this soon because it gets worse every year. and like i said the bucks have bigger but we have been harvesting %50 less out of 15- 20 guys. The bottom line is a doe makes BUCKS.
http://www.thebuckbarn.com/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

[erickoch]

yea, i also hunt up in centre county and have seen a lot less deer the last couple years.

[swab1985]

You wanna come down here and kill some? Its like a friggin' petting zoo around here, my neighbors feed the fury lil bastids' they sleep on my front and back lawn like its OK....wtf :nuts:

[chum stains]

Swab, I hunt with bernie up in center co. pa, and bradford and bucks. and our count has been down, compaired to years past. Are buck count is down do to a number of things.:(

1st. The antler reg. witch i think is a good thing to take these bucks when they are mature and let the younger ones do the breeding.

2nd. The extended doe season and the bonus tags. I dont think anyone who puts there time in the woods had a hard time finding a doe in a 3 day rifle/shot gun season. And only have bonus tags givin to land owners who aply for one, that need to manage there crops.

3rd. Predators, in the last few years coyote and bob-cats have really over populated a lot of Pa. And beleave me they have no problem taking down a small fawn. It is one of the only season that is never closed in pa. Alot of people never even see them because of how elusive they are but they are killing machines.

Bri, If i get a outa state license does that mean i have permission.LOL:D

[Drenalin1]

Man, I have land in Susquahanna County PA and for the last 10 years it has been about a 25 to 1 Doe to buck ratio. I think they need to put out more permits to even out the herd. I also hear hundreds of shots around me and think they will be wiped out next year, but when fall bow comes around they are right back in huge numbers.They did that in some zones by me in Jersey and within 2 years I am seeing a huge difference in even ratios. And quite frankly have been seeing alot bigger bucks because of it.

[grtwhthunter/fisherman]

i say same i live in soth jersey and state made it a free for all on does to reduce numbers in areas of growth . well job done clubs wiped them out now so bad there r no deer in some of the spots i used to hunt. the guys in club shot 30lbs to 40 lbs just off the teat. they dont know after 6 weekends of driving same exact spot does do damage . then you hear this bull shirt ,oh the blue tongue took a toll this past few years . please dont gety me started. the state does not count deer like they say now they call it spot counting whatta bunch of pooh. there used to b tweenty or so deer in this piece of woods for years . last two years we spotted all of two at 1100 at night .

[Bernie M]

You wanna come down here and kill some? Its like a friggin' petting zoo around here, my neighbors feed the fury lil bastids' they sleep on my front and back lawn like its OK....wtf :nuts:Where we hunt its the real mountains. Survival for a deer out there is tough. They don't have front lawns to munch on and sleep. Its woods and mountains for miles. its wild with bear, coyotes, bobcats, and foxes.

[onthehunt]

Point the finger directly at the late season month long antlerless gun seasons that so many zones have:eek:. Now you have these clubs that travel to zones that just have one or two days of permit shotgun in addition to the 20 something days they already have. I'm not talking muzzleloader or bow but the shotgun season. If you want to keep the seasons, create a way organized drives can not be used.

[Margaritaville]

NJ is the same way.

There are hunters that will kill all does and says that it doesn't hurt the population.

Well, it doesn't hurt right now, but give it time and the population will implode almost over night

[Reel Nice]

Pa and many other states have a simultaneous season , this devastates the deer population.. If the season is split less people will go out for doe season like before in Pa... During doe season only a handful of people would be out there and the doe harvest was definitely less

[Bernie M]

Pa and many other states have a simultaneous season , this devastates the deer population.. If the season is split less people will go out for doe season like before in Pa... During doe season only a handful of people would be out there and the doe harvest was definitely lesswell said!

[PA DEER]

Believe PA has lowered the number of doe permits this year, seems like they agree...

[swab1985]

Where we hunt its the real mountains. Survival for a deer out there is tough. They don't have front lawns to munch on and sleep. Its woods and mountains for miles. its wild with bear, coyotes, bobcats, and foxes.

I hunt in Vermont, that and Maine have the real woods and mountains... Just to let you know also, Us south jersey folk, get all those little fury woodland critters also, just not in the numbers you see....Zone 19 kills some ridiculous number of deer a year, like 1500 or better. And its still a friggin zoo

[MEAT-WAGON]

id have to say all those PA deer are movin east south Jersey is full of em

[skmag357]

seeing 50+ deer in one day means they are overpopulated big time. I think seeing 10-15 deer in a day as a good day. The antler restriction is working perfectly as I have shot some nice bucks in the last 5 years. The problem in the center and northern counties is the amount of hunting pressure on these deer. I know numerous guys from the philly area who head north to deer camp each year. I use to go drive 3 hours to see some doe and hopefully take a buck. I finally realized that the hunting outside of philly is much better than the rest of the state. The hunting pressure is a lot less and your chances of taking a nice buck is always there...

[tuny]

Many people assume there are so many less deer in an area just because they aren't seeing them. A lot of the time the deer have done one of two things, they either move into non-huntable areas or they bed up during the day and move almost excusively at night. Look around and check out the sign, you'll find tracks, rubs, scrape and a brose line but you may not see the deer. Sign is left no matter what time a deer is there, so judge the population on that not on what you see.:cool:

[LUCKY7]

I hunt Potter co. PA and agree there are far fewer deer since concurent seasons. We haven't shot does up at our camps for a few years now because we feel the herd is too thin. The PGC even stopped the concurent season in 2G this year. Winters are undoubtedly harsher in the big woods, and the coyote population has exploded as well in recent years making deer survival tougher. I think there are parts of Pa where doe hunting should be shut down all together for a few years, but I don't believe our deer management plan is one that can be changed annually to best suite the capacities of individual WMU's. All we can do is the best we can.

[ub1243]

PA has to rebuild the herd, they took the doe harvest too far. i don't want the 40 deer days, with one golf pencil spike.

[The Wadd]

I Hunt 3-c and 3-d! Im glad in 3-c they have taken away the first week
of killing anterless deer! I wish they would have done this for 3-d also!
and i would realy like to see the PGC go back to the old Regs,Antlerless after the 2 week Buck season! :fight::thup:

[Bernie M]

I Hunt 3-c and 3-d! Im glad in 3-c they have taken away the first week
of killing anterless deer! I wish they would have done this for 3-d also!
and i would realy like to see the PGC go back to the old Regs,Antlerless after the 2 week Buck season! :fight::thup:Me too. I think old regs. are better but keep 3 point rule. I might buy a doe permit in centre county and not use just to cancel out another killed doe.

[onthehunt]

I don't disagree that the deer herd is doing well in south jersey. What I'm saying is we should not shoot young bucks and does. Let them grow. These clubs that drive for does are not good for the herd. Period. The bowhunters and muzzleloaders can harvest enough antlerless deer and pass on the buttons. Hears a thought... since the majority of hunters are 9-5 mon-fri workers, give them sunday. That alone will help them harvest enough.

[The Wadd]

3 point rule is Great! But it should be right across the Board! Not even Junior Hunters should be able to take them! Just for the reason that it
takes away the chance for a Greedy Unethical Father or Uncle Or Relative
to Shoot a Buck with less than 3 Legal Points on one side!:fight:

[Barrell]

I Hunt 3-c and 3-d! Im glad in 3-c they have taken away the first week
of killing anterless deer! I wish they would have done this for 3-d also!
and i would realy like to see the PGC go back to the old Regs,Antlerless after the 2 week Buck season! :fight::thup:
Wadd, Where do you hunt? My farm is in Kaiserville just outside of Tunkhanock. I like the change also to the doe making it second week but guys got to get better and telling the difference between a button and a doe.

[The Wadd]

On my Friends property,Just outside of Halstead! :thup:

[Y-BUC-BILL]

N.J. and Penna.have the same problem "killing to many does.The 2 week Buck season was great till the Game Commission combined it with the slaughter of does.In N.J.some of the zones have an unlimited doe harvest in Jan.The does are carrying 2 or 3 unborn.It's legal to shoot them.I would give up hunting before I would partisipate in that kind of hunting.Let your conscience be your guide..The Division does not listen to the huhters when they complain about the lack of deer in those zones.Computer numbers seem to dictate the seasons.My club does not shoot does.I invite any game warden to hunt with us for a day and see the lack of deer on our drives.

[RUSS0079]

The PA Game Commission yells and screams about the amount of animals in some areas, that it affects the habitat. If you look at the feeding line compared to the areas they have fenced off, I see no difference. I have seen a difference in the maturity of bucks though... More rack bucks on State Lands. They should keep the tag numbers lower upstate and raise them in the surburban areas. That's where the problems lie.

[ihunt49]

3rd. Predators, in the last few years coyote and bob-cats have really over populated a lot of Pa. And beleave me they have no problem taking down a small fawn. It is one of the only season that is never closed in pa. Alot of people never even see them because of how elusive they are but they are killing machines.



Black bears kill a lot of fawns also.

[chum stains]

Yes they do. But bear season isent open year round. The coyote season is. There is alot more coyote then there is bear in my opinon. Their population is on the rise and they are the number one predator for the deer population next to weather and man. So if no one hunts them, pretty soon you will see alot more of people's pets diapearing along with are little fawns.

[hunt n blood]

dude theres a ton of does where i hunt..A TON!!!!!!!!!!!!!:shoot::shoot::shoot:

[Y-BUC-BILL]

Coyotes do a number on the fawn's

[ACEarcher]

Hmm, what a great topic!

Ok, to many ppl are used to the 80's when we saw 20-50 deer per a day and you might of saw a spiker in that day and you probably shot that spiker. Our forest and negative regen. growth. None, zero, zip, and now foresters are seeing a great increase. Our population of deer is lower. this is much healthier for our forests. Those days when you saw 50 some deer a day are few far inbetween. Some ppl mention 2G a lot and say how few deer they see there. 2G holds some of the oldest deer taken in the state. Your deer heard is only going to be as good as the environment that can hold it. Sure you might see less deer now, but the quality of the heard has improved greatly.

Fawn mortality rates fom predation is very low. I know that only 9% of mortality is from bears. Coyote and bobcat isen't much past that.

I read some one mention that the AR should be across the board (state). The reason the Western side of Pa is all 4 pts to one side is because the nutrition on that end of the state is better there than anywhere esle in Pa. Allegheny County now holds both archery records for Pa. Last year the archery typical buck record was taken and just this past year the archery non-typical buck record was taken.

For everyone that hunts the center areas of the state and are not happy about the deer popualtion you are now going to get what you want (more deer). The new deer rifle seasons of Pa in the following WMU's 2D, 2G 3C, & 4B will allow more doe to escape hunting pressure and live on. The first week of deer rifle is buck only. The second week of deer rifle is going to be buck and doe. Thus eliminating a week of doe harvest and the week when most are shot. When deer are pressured they try and find areas of no or little pressure. With the first week being buck only more does now are going to seek out those areas of safty. Once deer find these areas of safty they stay till the threat isen't there anymore. Thus you will now be having more deer around for following seasons.

[Full Draw]

Excellent post and I agree with everything you've said. I hunt a lot in 2G, 5C and 4C. Deer numbers are down in 2G but the numbers are huntable. I don't think the new deer seasons up there will stop the whining. I hear a lot of complaining about deer numbers in 4C and even 5C and it blows my mind. The old days of deer "management " are over and the hunting right now is pretty darn good. The quality of the bucks the last few years has been outstanding and the record books back that up.

[ACEarcher]

-Thanks Full Draw

One thing I've always thought about too. The PGC dosen't ever pull the trigger for you. The PGC is not only responsible for game animals, but all species of wildlife in Pa. Now if you ask me thats a pritty big shoe to fill for an under budget group such as the PGC. Not to mention Pa being the second most hunted state in the US. Openning day of gun season it is estimated 1 million hunters are in the woods. Thats an army the size of some third world nations. A 1/3 rd of Pa's work force is off on the Monday after Thanksgiving.

Years…………..1 ½ years old…………..2 ½ years and older……………% of harvest 2 ½ and older
83-87.…………….110,803.…………………29,137.…………………………..20.8 %
88-92.…………….132,870.…………………30,300.…………………………..18.6 %
93-97.…………….136,654.…………………30,271.…………………………..18.1 %
98-02.…………….148,058.…………………41,483.…………………………..21.9 %
03-07.………………68,348.………………..57,334.……………………………45.9 %

Before AR 80%-90% of the buck havest in Pa was 1 1/2 yr old buck. Since AR has been administered 40%-50% of the buck harvest are 1 1/2yr old bucks. Thus leaving the rest of the harvest being 50%-60% at 2 1/2 and + yrs of age.

[Full Draw]

I have definetly seen an increase in larger bucks. I've seen more P&Y caliber bucks the last several years in PA then I did in the previous 20. I like the antler restrictions. Good luck this season.

[philjam]

Coyotes do a number on the fawn's

There was a coyote shot near Hilltown last June. It was trailed to a culvert. Inside the culvert were TEN fawn heads.

[ACEarcher]

The deer pop is so high in the Bucks county area I would ever worrie about it. I heard about that yote killed in Hilltown. I also heard of another killed in Chalfont. I know I've got them at my E. RockHill spot. Its right outside of Perkasie. I found their tracks and scat. So yeah they're here I plan on trapping them soon here in Bucks. I got a redphse female this past January in Washington County in SW Pa. Nice coat on her.

I think we will be having an early fall this year. Partially due to the amount of rain we've had this late summer. Many trees around here are already falling. Soon most of them will go into swing and then a couple of rain storms to help them fall and it will be clear as day in the woods. I personally think that we're going to make up in our deer harvest this year. As compaired to last year when we where somewhere around 19% under our normal harvest. As long as openning day isen't rain and fog all day. Thats was soooooo horrible!!!!!!

[philjam]

Anyone notice more 3 fawn litters? I have a group of 3 near my house and another 2 miles down the road. One group still has a little bit of spot. The other is no spots.

[ACEarcher]

Seen one litter of three this season so far. I'd say almost all of the 6 month olds that I've seen have their spots grown out by now. I have seen one or two with only a few spots though.

[RUSS0079]

Been seeing a bunch of twins in 5D and 5C.. Had a good 7 point with a high six on the driveway last week. I hope its a good season.

[njbowhunter]

I seen a doe with triplets last night

[BarnesX.308]

Before AR 80%-90% of the buck havest in Pa was 1 1/2 yr old buck

Actually, according to those figures, it's 80 - 81.9% :D:D:D

[ACEarcher]

:please:
Good so the math I did in my head was close. Thanks for clarifying that. I guess if we're going to be scrupulous from now on I'll be sure to have a calculator close by. :thup::rolleyes:

[phillyfishing]

less does dying in pa mean sless money for the state.. the state wants all the money so they want all the doe tags sold.. its up to us hunters to not kill all the does but yeah everyone wants meat who hunts.. maybe give 1/3 less tags and charge a buck more.. now in nj i think you get a new tag for evey doe you kill right?

[ACEarcher]

Hmm nah not true. The PGC manages the antlerless heard for quality and heard health. Thus being a PGC goal for health of overall deer heard. The PGC does not manage it to make money. Each WMU has the acqiured AL tags that need to be harvested to mantain a healthy heard. Reducing the anlterless tags in certain areas would not help anything and only cause damage to our forestry and deer heard.
BTW law states that county treasurer are the only ones that can issue these AL tags. It dosen't say anything about the money going to legislation. State has nothing to do with it. If anything would change it must be brought before the Pa senete Game and Fisheries Committee first above all. Nothing really has to do with the state.

[ganggreen]

You have to shoot the does. Its not all about herd numbers as it is about herd management. You said you use to see 50 deer a sit. Thats rediculous. Especially in a mountain region of Pa. An area like that should only have about 7-10 deer PER SQUARE MILE. And a buck to doe ratio of 1:1 or 1.5:1. That is what the objectives of The Wildlife Department is. The herd structure and deer densities in this northeast region is so out of whack that this is what is needed to straighten it out. Read up on the facts on why they do what they do before griping about it.

[WoodsHunter]

Received my doe tag and my bonus tag. Like I said before I will not shoot does so there will be a least 2 does that will make it into next year to mate and hopefully give birth to that 8 or 10 pointer three years down the road that I will take.(Tioga Co.) Since they combined the buck/doe season I have not seen nearly as many deer as before. On two occasions found two small bucks, one a button, and the other a spike just left where they were shot. This lead me to beleive that a lot of people are saying "If it's brown, it's down" shoot at anything then check, not legal just leave it. When the season was split if you shot a doe during buck season you needed a eye exame. Just my opinion. But I always felt if you shoot a doe after the rut your killing two maybe three deer, one being that 8 or 10 pointer were all looking for...
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[ACEarcher]

First, why would you (as a fellow hunter) apply for antlerless tags and not use them?? If you didn't believe does should be shot then don't get them. Other hunters could of used them. Some of those hunters may of have needed them for their families. Some people do depend on those tags. And now you've taken that chance away from them. Many of new and Jr hunters firsts deer are does and I guess a few new hunters aren't going to get their first deer this year now. Second, the PGC biologist set those anlterless tag alocation numbers according to the deer population in that WMU. The number of antlerless tags set are the number of antlerless that are needed to be removed. By you buying tags and not using them this only hurts you cause. Since the needed harvests numbers aren't being meet then they just up the amount of doe tags. This is done to try and get the antlerless harvest amount needed meet. Third, anti's do that kind of stuff. Buy hunting license, antlerless tags and burn them. What does this solve nothing. Fouth, it sounds to me that you discrepancy is with the hunters and not the PGC. The PGC does not pull the trigger for you. Nobody is forcing anybody to go out and shoot antlerless deer. If you found a deer that was shot illegally then you should call your local WCO and file a report to try and find the SOB's that broke the law. Otherwise, not filling a report would just mean they're going to get away with it. I'm sorry to hear that the hunting in your area of Tioga Co. hasen't been the same. Within time it will change. For years our forest regeneration growth was in the negatives. Now we are seeing some changes in the positive direction. Fifth, I just wanted to inform you that their is no gaurentee that every mature doe will be breed. A white-tail doe during rut only goes into estrus once a month. Example : If a doe goes into estrus on or around November 20th and she isen't breed then the next time she will go into estrus will be in and around December 20th (no gaurentee). Some does don't get breed every year. I'm not try to convince you to shoot does. Since you've decided to take biological science into your own hands fine, just don't rob others of the joy, passion, pursuit, harvest, and nutrition that they deserve.

[Nanuk]

Well said ACE , if the biologist said there are certain amount of permits allowed why not use them , especially for a first timer or a young hunter . I know that in zone 16 and 7 where I hunt baiting has been a big killer of deer movement the deer hole up on private land not far from the bait sights a don't move naturally any more .Places I 've hunted in the past just don't hold the deer anymore , I also wish that both states would offer similiar regs to NY state , 1 doe with traditional (bow & mzl) or 1 buck and 1 doe per doe permit per zone picked with 2 permit limit and 1 buck with firearm ( rifle or shotgun) so you have opportunity to take 1 buck or doe with bow and up to 2 does and one buck with firearms and one buck or doe with the muzzleoader. Also another problem is no sunday hunting if they were to implement these regs they could offer sunday hunting and the woods wouldn't be so crowded come saturdays I work sometimes 6 days a week to put food on the table and don't always get saturdays off this is a real bummer :( I used to hunt three states PA NJ & NY now I hunt NJ and NY only can't see spending the money for short season and have to take time off from work to do any real hunting . I own land in northeren zone NY and shot some nice bucks but there's no doe permits where i hunt lack of farm land real big woods Benoit style hunting . This is just my 2 cents hope everyone has a safe successful season and remember where all in this together !!!!!!!:thup:

[cancerbeater]

Does make a huge difference. I assisted on a management hunt in michigan last year on a 700 acre fenced in ranch. The ranch was inactive and turned into a summer camp but because of state regulations they could not take down the fence so the management hunt was done for deer testing and population control. We shot 30 deer before lunch on the first day. Mind you it was required by state law so we reluctantly complied, lol. We only shot 5 bucks for actual hunting which is what we do every year there. this year the population is way way down but the big bucks are way up. so i dont know what to say. Total bucks is up and avg size went from 8 to 10 in just one year. last years herd was estimated at 80 deer...this year 60. Remember that we shot 35 so they did start coming back already. Its all about taking the older deer, which is what we did, and leaving the young does and young bucks to produce a stronger healthier deer next year. to many anxious hunters that shoot anything that moves is what is killing these areas.

[WoodsHunter]

:naughty:
Let me try to put it another way. This year there are (4) W.M.U. in Penna.(2D, 2G, 4B, 3C) that are closed to doe hunting on the first week of deer hunting. They will open on the second week, less hunters.
What that tells me those areas were over hunted for doe in the past three years. I feel there will be more close areas next year, then more the following year. If the state is so good at managing the heard what happened ? ? I've been hunting the same area for 35 years, I hunt private & State Forest. The guy's that I hunt with are not from N.J. or Phila., etc. there from where we hunt, I have hunted with these same guy's for most of the 35 years. It not me saying the deer heard is down in the north & north centeral part of Penna. it's them. These guy's two years ago started posting "No Doe Hunting" on there land. Look at the areas that are closed, it's almost 1/4 of the state. Maybe with a little more doe hunting next year it will be 1/4 of the state.:huh: So maybe I am keeping someone from killing a doe, but maybe that doe is carring a nice 8 pointer for the same person three or four years down the road, who knows. And the main reason I get the doe tag is that I know the money (non-resident) goes right into the states hunting & fishing programs. :thup: And by the way, it is hard to pass up a doe, last year saw a nice big doe, went about 120/130#, I think it may of been the doe I passed up the year before ! !
Be a hunter not a shooter, get that big buck, let the does breed...
By the way, this is not just my opinion, there are a lot of residents in that area that agree :) ! !


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[ACEarcher]

During the spring before a mature mother doe gives birth she boots whatever offspring she has away. That doe that gave birth to your 8 or 10pt boots him away. Especially young male white-tails establish their own territory far far far away from where you hunt. Imature male white-tails have been found to go as far as 40 miles from their area of birth. A imature doe will not travel as far. In time she may even come back into the same heard as here mother. Ever notice why you see a lot of deer hit by vehicals in the spring. This is why. Young deer leaving their mothers and birth areas establishing their own home territory. So unfortunitly they must cross some roads and some do get hit.

Due to the over population of deer that these areas have suffered a serious amount of forest degeneration has occured. The PGC dosen't manage the state just for deer. They are responsible for all forms of wildlife in Pa. Their has been no forest regeneration found untill the passed several years. Heard health is an important key to management. The resources in these areas are not that great. The soil and foilage quality content is not great. Believe it or not we did have winter kill in those years. Deer are a reflection of their habitat. We held back way too long by not harvesting more doe. Now we are seeing the repreccusion of this.

Deer have a way of finding safe areas when being exposed to danger. When deer are being threatened they seek out areas of safty. Once a deer finds those areas of safty where they are not being fired at they stay there. They only move under the cover of darkness and move back into the area of safty. With the areas that will be buck only for the first week more doe will be able to find these areas of safty and avoid human encounter. Less deer will be harvested and more deer will be around for next year.

I am a resident of Pennsylvania. I also hunt the regions you are mentioning. I understand that many hunters and sportmen/women are not all happy with the current population. When dealing with an issue such as wildlife things cannot change overnight. It takes years to see a project to completetion and the results evident. You must give it time.

Considering the amount of consern you have you should go on the PGC website. Look for deer managment proposal. Their should be a bran new proposal out considering the new study was just completed i.e. thats why the new deer season was put into effect this year (1st week buck, etc.) This management plan will explain what the plan is and what is the expected outcome.

[ACEarcher]

Deer densities, even buck to doe ratio, and amount of food the area can handle. These are 3 of the key reasons why we need to harvest doe. Learning to harvest does is a fairly new pratice. We only started to figure out that we need to harvest does about 5-6 years ago. In most cases you want to shoot the more dominate older doe. Watch the deer. Their are signs to show who is the more dominate one. Ears pinned back, moving other deer out of the way to get to food, watching a doe all a sudden kick or hit another doe. These are dominate stereo types. I just thought I'd throw some more valuable information out.

[WoodsHunter]

Hey Ace,
If the PGC does not want doe hunting in some areas, and your saying that by doing this there will be more deer to hunt in that area next year, isn't that exactly the same thing I'm doing by not shooting does in my area. If the PGC say's it's important to avoid shooting does in four WMU's areas, but I don't want to shoot does where I'm hunting I'm wrong. I only hunt the first week so I'm doing the same exact thing as the PGC says to do.:huh: What there doing this year is the same thing I been doing for three years. The way I see it, there just catching up.

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[ACEarcher]

Hey Woodshunter,

I'm very sorry to inform you, but the season change is not because of population issues. What I mentioned in the above will happen, but the new seasons goal is not to raise population. Call it a bi-product of this study. I know this because of past studies have proven this (deer find safe zones) deer behavior and survival tactic true. "The four WMUs were chosen because: WMUs 2G and 4B have ongoing deer research in them; WMU 2D is an area where antler restrictions are set at four points on one side, and is where the agency previously had deer research conducted; and WMU 3C is an area where antler restrictions are set at three points on one side, and is a physiographic area of the state where no extensive deer research has been conducted. Also, "the changes to these four WMUs will allow us to investigate the relationship between antlerless allocations and season length as we move forward with our deer management plan." Let me put it another way for you so their is no misconception. The additional study is covering antlerless deer harvest versus number of days of opportunity, or the overall season length. The study will be lasting the next 4 years.

If the PGC say's it's important to avoid shooting does in four WMU's areas, but I don't want to shoot does where I'm hunting I'm wrong.

Please enlighten me. Where and when did the PGC say we don't want antlerless harvested?

Nobody is playing catch-up.

[WoodsHunter]

In so many words, "The jury is still out"
The PGC should talk to the people that live and work in those area 24/7 not just a vist into the woods 2 or 3 times a week. There are a lot less deer in Tioga Co. now then ever before, period. Keep shooting the does if you think this is working. Myself, I'll continue to let them go and mabye someone down the road will get a shot, maybe not. I'm still looking for that 8 or 10 pointer:bow: and that won't happen if you kill the mother.
I'm not the only one that feels like this, I'm seeing more & more "No Doe Hunting" signs going up, what's that tell you ? ?:huh:
I feel that you think your doing a good job, continue in what you believe in, and I'll continue watching the doe's walk by. Like I tell my kids when they use to argue their own issues, hey it's getting boring, give it up...:fight:
Like Forrest Gump, that's all I got to say about this matter...:thup:
So if you respond to this, well you got the last word...:razz:
Hey, if I get a 8 pointer this year I'll let you know, then you can tell me how great the PGC project is working...:thup:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_160.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=_undefined) 8 pointer ? ?





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[boatliftman]

In NJ its the insurance companys that are pushing to kill the does, those damn deer cost them money:mad: it has nothing to do with the deer population its about money as is everything else in this screwed up state:mad:

[ACEarcher]

Woodshunter,
The PGC has talked to the hunters. Thats the point of the open meetings that any conserned hunter may voice their opinions and ideas. Also the PGC did put out a publication this past summer all about deer & deer management here in Pa. Two years ago the PGC put out an opinion card. I don't know the excact number, but many randomly selected Pa hunters where sent an evaluation card asking for what they think. You also might want to look at page 65-67 of the annual Pa digest. Many of the questions or suspicions you have can be answered. BTW the PGC biologist spend countless days in the woods of Pennsylvania. This is their job and they do it to the best of their profession. Each biologist that is sectioned to an area of Pa is always in the field. It is the only way to get the data we need inorder to interpret our current biological integrity.

I'll quote myself from a previous post. I'm not try to convince you to shoot does. My debate with you isen't over you should shoot does, but their is nothing wrong with shooting does. To each is own. Those "No Doe Hunting" signs only tell me that people don't want does shot on their property. This is no new idea by any means. Do you know how pissed off many hunters where when the PGC said lets have a doe season. I've seen those signs before. Even back in the 80's when you'd see 20-30 doe and one spiker in a day I still saw those signs. This is nothing new to the Pa hunting community.

Maybe the specific area you hunt has a population issue. You keep mentioning Tioga Co. and 3B so on a hunch I'll say thats where your hunting. Maybe a quarter of Tioga is in 3B. The other WMU portions of Tioga are 3A and 2G. If you think the population in the 3B portion of Tioga isn't good then what about the 3A and 2G portions? By you purchasing an antlerless tag for 3B and not using it not even the intent on using it) you are also effecting the deer population of the entire WMU of 3B. What if the deer population is too high in a portion of Wyoming, Sullivan, Luzerne Counties? You effect them too by purposly buying up antlerless tags with the intent of not using them. Not to mention other hunters in those other areas now have less of a chance for harvesting an antlerless deer because they don't have a tag. Let does walk if thats what you believe is right. Like I said before "the PGC dosen't force anybody to pull the trigger".

I hope you do get a good buck this year. Oh and BTW getting in the last word is very immature. Children do that as you've mentioned. I'm debating with you not arguing. Isen't that the point of this thread?

[WoodsHunter]

Ace,
O.K. O.K you win, I don't want to be branded as inmature...:naughty:
I've never been a good debater, never was, never will be.
I know that what you beleive in you feel it's true.(via PGC)
I also know what I beleive in is also true. (via area residents)
You have all the backing of the PGC and there effort to maintain the deer heard. All I have is discussions with friends & family in the area.
I hunt in area 3-A,(Tioga, Potter, KcKean) at one time consider my many as the priemer counties of Penna. I've been hunting this area (probably longer than you been on earth) for 36yrs. I've seen the area has been pretty consistent in the deer harvest until the introduction of the buck/doe combo hunt. In my early years got the spike, the "Y" buck, the six pointer. As I got older start letting them go by hoping that a his/her youngen would get there first buck. Now I don't even see small bucks.
I beleive in the K.I.S.S. method. If you let a possible pregant doe go by she will give birth, if you shoot that doe there will be no birth, not just for a season or two, never. Tell you a quick little story. I went upstate this pass summer with my wife, daughter, and granchildern, stopped in to the Wellsboro Diner. There were four, more mature gentlemen in the booth next to us. They were takling about the price of their hunting license. The one man said he remembered when the hunting license was $5.00, the other man said he remembered when the license was $2.00, and the oldest of the gentlemen said he remembered when the license was a button. I had to ask them how they felt about deer hunting now, like it was rehersed, "It Sucks". (true story) Seems there having the same problem I'm having, not seeing deer. :huh:
Now what I like you to do Ace, is to sit down with these gentlemen and explain to them how good the PGC deer management is working...
Another thing that I like to bring to your attention, that the hunting populations (young hunters) has been going down, been going down for the last ten years. It's hard enough to get a young kid up at 0400, it's worst when they see nothing. The deer numbers are down. Don't get me wrong, the buck are bigger, there just a lot less buck avalible...
I will continue to let the doe go by, along with the spikes and the Y's
hoping for the youngsters to get their first deer. If they do shoot that doe thats fine, if not maybe that doe will be there for them next year. Besides, there is nothing more manely than a 220# man dragging a 60# doe into camp, a real Kodak moment. :rolleyes:
If there are any "BuckBarn" hunters that hunt Tioga/Potter Co. and see things differently jot it down, like to know.
And as I said from the get-go, I buy a doe tag and the bonus tag because I know it's going directly to the PGC. Ace if you work for the PGC and receive monies for that service your working for me, :bow: keep up the good work :confused:
I'm WoodsHunter and I appove of this topic ! ! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_160.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=_undefined) "My 8-Pointer" I hope... Ron

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[Nanuk]

In NJ its the insurance companys that are pushing to kill the does, those damn deer cost them money:mad: it has nothing to do with the deer population its about money as is everything else in this screwed up state:mad:

I with you the amount of deer killed is amazing , As I wrote before I wish the state would adopte similar regs to NYS DEC , Easy to follow without the over kill and allow sunday Hunting . But the cost would go down AH !! not good for GOVERMENT :naughty:

[ACEarcher]

Woodshunter,

I will agree with you on the matter of education. Not only for our young and up coming hunters, but our current hunters and senior hunters. West Virginia has a great program recently started. They educate our kids in their schools about deer and hunting. A WV representative goes to the school and gives a presentation. This is an effort to try to introduce young kids to hunting who's families may not already be into it. The PGC should put more time and effort into the education, but I think it may be a financial issue. Within time i think many other states will follow WV's lead.

I would love the chance to try and educate more people on our current deer mangement issues and proposed solutions. It would be a challenge I would take with open arms. I already know you can't reach everybody, but if I reached a few and only a few people than thats a change. Then I at least helped someone understand. You can't get everyone to understand especially someone who already has their mind made up, but I would do my best. The Keep It Simple Stupied (K.I.S.S.) idea is always great, but sometimes biology just isen't simple.

I don't work for you (i.e. the PGC), but I would love too. I would do anything and everything to ensure the health, safty and security of Pennsylvania's wildlife. Even if it ment putting my name on the line. Pennsylvania's wildlife is something every resident (inculding residents of neighboring states) has the right to enjoy.

[centerrigger]

:razz::razz::razz::razz::razz:Yes the 3 on one side is a great rule and i have seen nicer deer taken in last 5 years. The big problem is that in PA doe season goes all through buck season and the doe aren't around like they were since they changed it. I hunt in centre county PA for rifle season and the year they changed it a local friend up there used to count shots that he would hear opening day with a clicker counter. Now keep in mind there tons of hunters in that area but it went from 200-300 shots opening day to 1500 shot just on opening day.On any given day while in my stand i would see 15-50 deer a day.Now 15 deer in a day would be a busy day. I talk to guys that hunt all over the state and they are saying the same thing. the PA game commition has to stop this soon because it gets worse every year. and like i said the bucks have bigger but we have been harvesting %50 less out of 15- 20 guys. The bottom line is a doe makes BUCKS.

http://www.thebuckbarn.com/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

[Makoman]

We have had a camp in McKean County since 1968. We always took 6-10 bucks per year with 12 hunters. Most were 1 1/2 year olds but we always took some nice ones too. Now, it is difficult to see more than 2 0r 3 deer in a week of hunting!!!!!! In fact, last year we took 3 bucks which were the first ones we took in 4 years!!!!!! We have never killed a doe out of our camp. Most of us live in NJ and can shoot a doe anytime here. The concurrent doe season has, literally, decimated the deer herd in our area. The economic effect has been devastating. The local motels, restaurants, etc. have seen their business during the deer season go to pot. The hunters from Ohio, NY and NJ just don't come up there anymore since there are no deer to hunted. The decision to stop the concurrent doe hunting for the 1st week in 2G is a smart decision and should help somewhat. However, it will take a long time to reestablish a decent herd.

[flatlander]

:thdown: I buy the tags and throw them out!!!!!!!!

[ACEarcher]

Yeah that helps the PGC meet the right management goals correctly. Not to mention take away a chance from someone else who deserves those tags. So they get doe tags and take away the chances from other people who could use them. Whats next candy from a baby? If you don't want one don't get one. What your doing is just making it harder for correct wildlife management to be preformed. Thanks for also making it harder for all of the of ther hunters in that WMU to reach that certain population goal. BTW as much good as you think your doing your only hurting your own cause. Those antlerless tags are set at those numbers because that is what we need to be removed from our heard in that WMU. So what would happen if say you and 10,000 of your buddies all did the same thing. Now the PGC is going to *raise* (yes raise meaning MORE doe tags than before) 10,000 more of the amount of antlerless tags available because they are not meeting the numbers they need. Thank you for making the already difficult job of wildlife management in Pennsylvania more difficult. And the other hunters of Pa thank you for delaying the goals set out by professionals of the PGC who do their best to care for the health and well being of our heard. Thanks.

[Makoman]

ACEarcher: I think you are giving the PGC "professionals" too much credit. They tried managing the entire state by the same rules. You can't manage deer in the "big woods" area the same as you do in farm country. Their policies wiped out the herd in the McKean/Potter area. They did not take into account winter kill or increased populations of both bear and coyote. The 2 week, concurrent doe season was the worst thing that ever happened to the herd in our area. The old, 2 day doe season was adequate to provide meat for those hunters who wanted it. At least, this year anyway, they have eliminated the first week of buck season from the doe season. Personally, I think the PGC is more concerned with catering to the forestry and insurance interests than they are to the hunters. Just my opinion . Also the opinion of the United Sportsmen of PA.

[WoodsHunter]

Makoman & Flatlander,
I agree with both of you, get the doe tag, throw it out.The hunting in Potter/Tioga co. is terrible. I had two doe tags last year, saw a doe that weighed 70# (maybe) if I would of taken that back to camp I be hanging from the meat pole. I know for a fact there are a lot less deer in the woods, started when they allowed buck/doe season together. I know there are people out there who will argue that but most of them live down here, get into the woods mabye 3x/year, I spend a lot of time up in Tioga/Potter Co. with friends & family, talk with them, the deer are not there. They do not work for the PGC so they don't need to make up stories that there just as many deer now as ten years ago, these people live and hunt there, let someone try to convince them things are better. Unfortunaly some of my friends have business there and they are suffering, you would think they would say the hunting is great to build up business but there honest people and they say "The Deer are not there"
If the PGC keeps up the good work they won't have anything to manage.
Now anybody want to talk about all the great places and the millions of pheasant's out there. To show the kids a pheasant I have to Google it now.:huh:

[fatboy]

The PGC is completly outdated. They have no idea how many deer are out there. They have no RELIABLE info on the harvest. I have been hunting in Tioga Co. for a long time. I used to enjoy the ride home to see what was on or in others trucks. Last year I drove home on Wed afternoon. from Tioga to Phila I saw 4 deer 2 bucks 2 does. The year before I came home on Tues. same deal a few more but not many. I understand they face challenges, falling revenue,etc, but the mismanagement is out of hand. They achieved their goal of doe reduction WAY faster than they will admit. The nubers reported at the annual harvest are a joke. I talked to ten guys at ten different camps, same story, very feew deer. I see almost none in a 4 hr 300 mile ride and a near record harvest is reported....come on. They need to adapt quickly and get better reporting ways.

[WoodsHunter]

Hey Fatboy,
Where in Tioga Co.?? I don't know how many hunters on the BuckBarn there are that hunt Tioga/Potter Co. but you know what I'm talking about, the deer are not there. Before the doe/buck season there were a lot more deer in these areas, yea the racks weren't big but you felt you were in the game. Once in a while someone would get a nice 6 or 8 pointer or better, had a friend of mine get a 13 pointer, almost a 14 but the ring they use for measuring would not stay on the point, at that time thought it was a new county record, it did rate in the top 10 though. Use to watch the guys coming out of Potter Co. with two, three deer on top of the trucks now your lucky to see anyone with a deer on there vehicles. It was nice back when you went upstate first week of buck saw plenty of deer knowing that you would be back up in two weeks for doe. Now I don't even shoot at a doe, if someone else gets a doe thats fine, hope it's a kid's first or a eighty year olds 100, but I feel that if they shot that doe within a mile of where I was hunting it might of been the one I let go by.
It just seems to me that the PGC has cut back funding, maybe they have one person surveying a 25mile area, gets back to the office, yea there is 200bucks and 400does in my area, need to issue 5000 more doe permits.
Back when my son was of age I would go upstate for buck myself then pull him out of school for three day's for doe season, couple of times he was lucky enough to get that doe. Now my son is 30yrs. old. I took him to the same area last two years as I did before. His response two years ago, dad where are all the deer, response last year, dad, can't afford to go and just sit there all day for nothing. I'm just blowing off steam, not real happy on what's going down then have someone tell me how great the new system is working.:thdown:

[fatboy]

Tioga township. Our propert buts up to the infamous boar farm. It is a travesty what has happened up there.

[WoodsHunter]

Yea, I hunt up around "Goodall Tower" area (SGL) in Tioga Co. that borders a few of my friends property. Hunt Potter Co. on private property, good friend of mine who lives there. Hunting stinks ! :thdown: Hunting there 35+ yrs. remember scaring the deer up the side of the mountain when we got there sometimes after first light, now they scare me, forgot what they looked like. We use to book are stay there from friday after Thanksgiving, until the following saturday, there use to be 23 of us, some from N.J. some from N.Y. some from Rhode Island and two from Vermont. The last two years were down to two, me and my buddy from Philly. He was asking me if I really want to stay up there for the whole week, told him been doing it for so long not going to change now. I just hope things change, but like my dad use to say hope in one hand and chit in the other, see which one fills first. But in any case "Good Luck" :thup:
Note: See picture below in case you forgot what they look like...

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[WoodsHunter]

FatBoy,
Tell you a funny story.. If your property borders that boar farm I think they also have exotic animals there if it's the same one. Not sure but will tell you the story anyhow. Father and his brother take his son (nephew) hunting in that area. Father keeps explaining that what you want is a buck (at this time a spike would do) they put the youngster in between father and uncle say some 500yds.apart. Father saids if you shoot, either me or uncle Frank will hear it. Make sure you mark the area and come get me. Well long and behold two hours or so go by and there is a shot, has to be from the kid, they haven't seen anyone else in the area. The father waits about a 1/2 hour and here comes the son, dad, dad, I got one, father say's calm down, calm down, did you mark were you were sitting, son, yes, father say's is the deer down, son say's yep, did you mark the spot where the deer is laying, yep, good going son, how many points does it have, the boy, dad it has 15 or 18 not sure how many.:nuts: O.K. the father says your excited, meanwhile uncle Frank shows up, heres the story. They go to the spot the kid shot the deer. Sure as chit there lay's a big 15 or 16 pointer. Unfortunately it was one of the exotics that escaped from the boar farm, like $2,000 if someone shot it within there fence line. Well the farm wanted to the exotic deer back, weight about 200# they all took pictures with it before it was repo. The great thing about it was the kid was in the biggest buck contest at camp and they turned over the $200.00 dollars to the kid.:thup: After that, one of the by-laws in the camp for biggest buck was it had to be a whitetail. Maybe you heard of the story, it was about 40yrs. ago, maybe before your time...:rolleyes:

[fatboy]

Thats it. We have killed escaped boar on the property,years back though. The neighbor shot a Ram a few years back that escpaes as well. I would have never given the deer back, there are some cruisers in the area. My buddy killed a 145 13 pter on our property tenyears ago and I saw a true 140-150 class three years ago but I was tagless i was pushing for my dad.

[ACEarcher]

www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/allocation_recommendation.pdf (http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/allocation_recommendation.pdf)

Here is the PGC allocation list in order by WMU. This survey is done by the PGC regional biologist (whom spend more time in the woods/air than probably at home).

The reason why the PGC can't give a deffinate population number is because the population can change through every hunting season. Not to mention the PGC does their population estimates in the late wintering months after all deer hunting seasons are over. This allocation is from last year. The new one will probably be out again during the month of April (data is collected during winter months). Survey is mostly done by a grid from a helicopter.

Mako-
The PGC does take into account fawn mortality invovling predators. I know the fawn mortailty with bear is only 9%. Coyote I don't know what the % is off hand, but I'll do some research. Years ago we did have high winter kill because the population was too high. Their was not enough winter forage for the population we had. From what I know our winter kill is not very high because we decreased the population. But yes the predator variables are taken into account when figuring fawn mortality.

Hope this helps.

[Makoman]

Just returned from a week at camp turkey hunting. Went out spotting each night. The most deer we saw in about an hour and a half of spotting was around 10-12. That's a joke. We used to see at least 100-200 deer in the same area. Sorry, ACEarcher, I still think the PGC is way off base in their deer management program. I don't know how they inventory the deer now but they used to walk the creek bottoms in the spring and count the winter kills to come up with a population estimate. If they do that now, they will not find any dead deer since there are hardly any in the area. We have plenty of young saplings throughout our area from the numerous clear cuts in the last 10-12 years. We need less doe hunting to re-establish the herd to a huntable number. The paper companies and insurance companies are putting a lot of pressure on the PGC to reduce the deer population. They have the money and money talks. The hunters are the ones who get the short end of the stick. I really believe they need to cut the doe season to 1-2 days in the big woods area of the state.

[stonefly]

ACEarcher...i follow ya...
i've hunted Tioga county for 16 years now, in a family that's hunted the same mountain for 65 years plus...the only problem here is, you're debating against old codgers with selective hearing...the same ones that instead of sitting in the woods waiting out the deer, are driving up and down the roads bothering every other hunter they see with the same recycled, long winded soliloquies about how there used to be so many more deer, "herds of a hundred"... seems they all have a problem with actually having to 'hunt' for deer...things must be terrible if you can't see deer from the trucks while stuffing your face with sammiches and coffee...talk is for the supper table, from sun up til sun down, shut yer mouth and hunt or go home...

in the last three years i've taken the two best bucks of my families history on the mountain i hunt in tioga county...less deer means healthier deer, killing mature doe's is as important as killing mature bucks

[Makoman]

Stonefly: When 10 men hunt all day for 6 days and don't see a legal buck for 3 years something is very wrong. Especially since we normally took 6-8 bucks a year prior to the concurrent doe season. We don't hunt does in our camp but we do approve of a doe season; just not for 12 days during the buck season. Two days of doe season is all that our area can sustain. Tioga County has more farm country than McKean/Potter. That means a lot for the deer herd. Again, we approve of the 3 point rule but we took many nice bucks over the years without it. Most of the natives in our area are not trophy hunters and are happy with any buck. Another casualty of the current policy is the yearly loss of young hunters. Kids want to see some deer even if they don't shoot one. The local high school used to close for the first 3 days of buck season. They no longer do that since very few of the kids are hunting. The PGC needs to refine their deer population estimating procedures and stop listening to the timber and insurance companies. Just my 2 cents.

[BarnesX.308]

Especially since we normally took 6-8 bucks a year prior to the concurrent doe season.

What were the sizes of the 6-8 bucks? I remember game poles filled with spikes and seeing 50 doe a day. However, someone coming back to the camp with a 20-22 inch 8 pointer was unheard of. And a 10 pointer? No way. There are definitely less deer now. But hey, the ones we have are fat and healthy.

I say keep the concurrent season. Just reduce the number of tags.

I used my buck tag in archery. Without the concurrent season, I would have nothing to do during deer camp this year. :D

[Makoman]

Barnes X - We always had at least 2 nice bucks and often 3 or 4. We had the 4th place buck in the Potter County big buck contest one year with a nice 10 pointer. We always had our share of spikes and Y's but, since we are not trophy hunters, we were always happy with whatever we took. The celebrations at camp were the most fun. Seeing 10-14 deer back then was a good day. Now, seeing 1 deer is a good day. A lot of the guys have a theory that "once a spike, always a spike". The first year of antler restricrtions we saw several spikes and Y's but didn't see a shooter for 3 years. We continued to see the same spikes and Y's. Now, after 5 years of concurrent doe seasons, we don't even see any spikes!!!!!!!!! In ouir camp, the guys who have filled their tags do the cooking!!!!!!! Good luck with your doe tag.

[WoodsHunter]

This will be my 38 year deer hunting in the same general area. I hunt with friends who live there, trust me these guy's hunt hard, all 12 hour days. they don't drive up an down the mountain bothering the other hunters while eating there sammiches. They are aggrement with Mako and a lot of other guy's that hunt the area (Tioga Co.) that the deer are not there anymore, they don't visit the area twice a year they live on the property, how much more in touch can anyone be,:huh: they are the residents. I was told things don't look much better this year than in the past, but they know I will still be hunting there, look foward to it. Use to be visit friends & family and if you got a nice buck it was a bonus, now I do the visiting and hope I even see a deer. It's sad also that my son and his friend stop coming up two years ago, the kid says, dad when you see deer let me know then me and Nick will be back up hunting with you.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_160.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=_undefined) "Here's Hoping"




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[fatboy]

Mt group as well are not road hunters. Our property is 17 miles from our camp. Some of our stand locations are an hour walk from the road. We hunt from dark till dark. We stay in the woods all day. even guys that get deer are stuck there as we drive over in groups. No road hunters here. I have spent many a day in my climber from dark till dark with never getting down. The deer numbers are not there. As I stated before the PGC has no real numbers just best guestimates. Those estimates imho are way off.

[WoodsHunter]

Mako/Fatboy,
Love when someone puts everyone in the same class (i.e.stonefly) I don't think either one of you road hunt, I know that there are people that (hunt ??) but it's more like getting away from the wife for a couple of days. Sat in a treestand so long a few years back, think the high for the day was 16degrees, wind, terrible. When I was ready to take a break at about noon I was still in the stand. Check with my buddy (Walkie-Talkie) he ask me when were going to put a AMEN on this, :nuts:told him it's still light, we'll go to 4:30. He wasn't really all for it but we hung in there. When I was ready to eat my sammiche it was frozen, my thermos of coffee was almost warm, it was tough but we hung in there.Feel you guy's would do the same. Just my thoughts.:thup:

[fatboy]

Mako/Fatboy,
Love when someone puts everyone in the same class (i.e.stonefly) I don't think either one of you road hunt, I know that there are people that (hunt ??) but it's more like getting away from the wife for a couple of days. Sat in a treestand so long a few years back, think the high for the day was 16degrees, wind, terrible. When I was ready to take a break at about noon I was still in the stand. Check with my buddy (Walkie-Talkie) he ask me when were going to put a AMEN on this, :nuts:told him it's still light, we'll go to 4:30. He wasn't really all for it but we hung in there. When I was ready to eat my sammiche it was frozen, my thermos of coffee was almost warm, it was tough but we hung in there.Feel you guy's would do the same. Just my thoughts.:thup:

Been there brother, many times... Never a short day with my camp.

[Bernie M]

What were the sizes of the 6-8 bucks? I remember game poles filled with spikes and seeing 50 doe a day. However, someone coming back to the camp with a 20-22 inch 8 pointer was unheard of. And a 10 pointer? No way. There are definitely less deer now. But hey, the ones we have are fat and healthy.

I say keep the concurrent season. Just reduce the number of tags.

I used my buck tag in archery. Without the concurrent season, I would have nothing to do during deer camp this year. :DOur camp had 4 bucks with 20+ inch spred before the reg. change. But we also had countless spikes and Y bucks taken to.

[fatboy]

I have a question. Where are all the spikes and y bucks. We dont even see them anymore. They are not there.....With the regs and antler restrictions there should be more young bucks around, I have not seen em.

[WoodsHunter]

Tell you what's happening, saw it three times so far in the last five years.
There are hunters (if that's what you call them) that are shooting at
anything, they shoot first then check. If it's a doe no problem, if it's a
spike they leave it so not to get caught. One "Y" buck needed to be found, it was down in a gully, but there was a decent blood trail, the other two were easy to find, one was in a little snow that had fell, there was even boot prints were the deer was laying. The other "Y"s and spikes are being killed before there even born, a pregant doe.:thdown:

[ACEarcher]

I'll tell ya what it is! It's them dang gone Mt. Lion's thats what it is. Soon I think the PGC is gonna release wolves to combat the coyotes. The Mt. Lions and the coyotes are puropsly taking out the buck! Thats what it is. The wolves aren't so discrimitory. Thats how we'll fix ther problem. Next we're gonna have to figure a way to take out those fischers.

Less deer now. So with less deer you'll see even less buck. Not to mention more deer are making it to mature ages than before. Your not seeing the spikes and Y's because their something else. Most of this is genetics but food sources as well. Now that we've lowered the population Their is more food to go around (whatever is left). Before in you glory days of seeing 50 doe a day and a spiker. Thats a lot of food that those 50 doe are consuming!!!!! Thats a major contriubuting factore to that buck only being a spiker or Y. Now with more food it maybe that 4 pt you seen? Or Ron's majestic 8-10pt (JK buddy). More food = bigger antlers, reduced population = more food.

[WoodsHunter]

So what your saying is, we are not seeing no spikes or "Y: bucks because there something else.. Maybe they are dressing up like Mt.Lions or wolves that's why were not seeing as many. Or is the PGC system working so well that the first year the buck is born it turns into a six or eight pointer. If this is the case your right the program is really working well.:thup: Does anyone else on the BuckBarn know that there are no more spikes or "Y"s out there ? ?:nuts: I think it's important that everone knows.:huh:
Ron

[Makoman]

There is no scarcity of food in our area. Just a scarcity of deer to eat it!!!!!! Personally, I'd rather shoot a spike or Y than a doe!!!! That seems to be the thoughts of most of the hunters I speak with, both camps and locals. Since the first year of concurrent doe hunting, we are seeing fewer and fewer spikes and Y's. We are also seeing fewer and fewer shootable bucks!!!!!! Something is wrong and the apparent culprit is "concurrent doe hunting". Go back to a 2 day season and give the herd a chance to return to a huntable population.

[ACEarcher]

Ron,

LOL LOL Please show me where in all that I said their are "NO" spikers/Y buck in Pa:please:. I have a spiker at one of my spots here in Bucks Co. that I've seen several times. They are just young deer probably most of them 1 1/2 yr olds. Regardless though, antler growth is determined by:

1) Age
2) Genetics
3) Food quality

These three factors are proven in QDM. I can tell you that a buck only shows 40% of his true potential of antler growth at 2 1/2 (provided the right food source is there). That is a fact at least according to QDMA.

Makoman,

You'd be suprised what is actually edible and what isen't to a deer. Beleive it or not most of Pa's northern tier does not have a very good browse line. A browse line is a browse that is available to a deer. If most of the browse line is only 3 feet off the ground then that is a within reach of the deer. Say your browse line is 6 feet up then most of the available browse is not very available to the deer. And if that is the case then they probably aren't getting the amount of food they need.

Nobody, even the PGC makes hunters shoot doe. If you feel that the reduced deer population is the culprit of your unsuccessful hunting then don't shoot the does. Their is no rule stating you must shoot doe. Why not try and manage your hunting ground the way that you want it. Off the top of my head impliment no doe hunting and an eight point rule. Why not? It's not illegal! You'll start seeing more deer (at least should). But, unless you own A LOT say again A LOT of land your going to need to get your neigbhoring camps and land owners to do it too. Go back to a 2 day season and give the herd a chance to return to a huntable population. Try it out. Hunt buck for a week or so then only hunt doe on your land for 2 days. Why not? Impliment your own season within the Pa deer season. I'm not trying to convince anyone to shoot doe. I'm just saying that their is nothing worng with it. :thup:

[fatboy]

I'll tell ya what it is! It's them dang gone Mt. Lion's thats what it is. Soon I think the PGC is gonna release wolves to combat the coyotes. The Mt. Lions and the coyotes are puropsly taking out the buck! Thats what it is. The wolves aren't so discrimitory. Thats how we'll fix ther problem. Next we're gonna have to figure a way to take out those fischers.

Less deer now. So with less deer you'll see even less buck. Not to mention more deer are making it to mature ages than before. Your not seeing the spikes and Y's because their something else. Most of this is genetics but food sources as well. Now that we've lowered the population Their is more food to go around (whatever is left). Before in you glory days of seeing 50 doe a day and a spiker. Thats a lot of food that those 50 doe are consuming!!!!! Thats a major contriubuting factore to that buck only being a spiker or Y. Now with more food it maybe that 4 pt you seen? Or Ron's majestic 8-10pt (JK buddy). More food = bigger antlers, reduced population = more food.

Your first paragraph makes it sound like you think we are conspiracy theorists, or that we do not understand what is going on.

1) I fully understand the concept of QDM. I understand it's goals and the science behind it.

2) QDM works like a charm when the science behind it has acuurate numbers. I dont think the PGC has accurate numbers I will explain why. I realize their resources are stretched thin, but the reporting system is outdated. Thje best estimates are just that a guess. then you have to take into account on top of all the antlerless tags issued, the DCNR issues DMAP coupons. Add to that landowners shooting claiming crop damage. So with a fraction actually sending report cards, dmap coupons, poaching and crop damage shooting....I think way more deer where killed than anticipated. I personally think the PGC reached its goal with antlerless numbers faster than they anticipated, in some cases I believe they exceeded thier goals.

3) My theories are based on what I see and hear. I talk to guys with camps in Sullivan, Bradford, Tioga, Potter and Susquehanna. Almost all stories are identical. Very quiet opening days , very few seen. Their rides home, the same as mine only a few harvest sightings. I conclude the harvest and numbers are way down. What makes me sceptical about the PGC's science is the continued reporting of near record harvests. All I can go by is what I personally see, and hear.

4) On a positive the AR's are working great. The few deer I do see are quality animals. Personally I have had great archery seasons for years now,( however I hunt in 5D) not totally representitave of the state. I know things are going in the right direction. I know how QDM works, I just wish a more accurate reflection of the herd size was represented.

[Makoman]

ACE: Unfortunately, we only own a couple of acres or we would take our own measures. Most of the land we hunt is either privately owned, open to hunting or state game land. And we do have more than enough browse that is less than 6 ' high. Very large tracts in our area have been clear cut within the past 5 years. Believe me, despite what the PGC is telling you, their policy has decimated the herd in our area, and, from what I am reading on here, in a lot of other areas. Perhaps that's why they decided not to allow doe hunting during the first week of buck season this year?????????

[ACEarcher]

Sorry, I guess comedy isen't my calling. Sorry for trying to brighten the mood.

As for DMAP, crop damage, not sending report cards, and poaching:

1) DMAP or Deer Management Assistence Program. Qualified landowners participating in DMAP, receive a limited number of coupons (determined by acreage) that they will make available to hunters, who, in turn, may redeem them for a DMAP antlerless deer permit to hunt on the property for which they are issued. Hunters may use them during any established deer hunting season. Coupons are issued to landowners at a rate of one coupon for every five acres in agricultural operations, or one coupon for every 50 acres for all other landowners. Hunter also may not get more than 2 permits per a property. All DMAP antlerless deer permit holders are required to report, regardless of deer harvest success, using the provided report card or via the website. Also, I think you maybe mistaken considering who controls the program the DCNR issues DMAP coupons. The Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (DCNR), Bureau of Forestry and Bureau of State Parks is participating in the Pennsylvania Game Commission's Deer Management Assistance Program (DMAP). The DMAP program allows DCNR to promote forest regeneration by targeting the most vulnerable and severely impacted tracts for additional antlerless deer harvests.

2) "In response to a change in state law, the Board of Game Commissioners today gave preliminary approval to create a special permit process for farmers to use assistance from up to two licensed hunters to address the need to kill game or wildlife for crop damage.

On July 3, Gov. Edward G. Rendell signed into law House Bill 881, which included a provision authorizing the Game Commission to permit other individuals to assist eligible landowners in the destruction of wildlife causing agricultural damage on their property. This provision took effect Sept. 1, 2007. However, before the Game Commission can begin the issuance of any permits to authorize this activity, the Board of Game Commissioners must approve regulatory language to define and create this new program.

A depredation permit issued under the program would allow the farmer to enlist the aid of a limited number of subpermittees for the purpose of killing game or wildlife causing crop damage. The maximum number of subpermittees listed shall not exceed two per permit, unless the district Wildlife Conservation Officer recommends an increase due to warranted circumstances.

Under the program, which must be finally adopted by the Board at its January meeting, farmers would have to identify those who would serve as subpermittees; the specific location of the property owned, leased or otherwise controlled by the applicant; the species of game or wildlife causing damage; and the specific nature and extent of the damage caused by the game or wildlife.

Landowners who qualify for the program must qualify as a farmer and; except in Wildlife Management Units 5C and 5D, must be enrolled in one of the agency's public access programs (Farm Game or Safety Zone) for a minimum of 2 years; and possesses a valid agriculture deer control permit if the species sought to be destroyed is white-tailed deer.

A depredation permit issued under this subchapter is valid at any hour, day or night, but only for the duration of the current permit year. An annual report shall be submitted on forms supplied by the Commission by July 31 of each permit year.

Those who qualify as a "subpermittee" would be resident, licensed hunters. Subpermittees may not have a prior record of Game Code violations or related license revocations within the previous 10 years.

A subpermittee shall report all wildlife destroyed within 24 hours to the Game Commission and will not be permitted to keep any game or wildlife taken under the program. A subpermittee shall surrender the entire carcass, including the head and hide, to the Game Commission or to a food bank or a butcher operating on behalf of a food bank, at the express direction of the district Wildlife Conservation Officer."

The Link: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=172707&pp=12&n=1

On a side note. I personally participate in a red tag program. The amount of issued permits are done by the amount of crop available considering the amount of depredation.

3) Hunters not sending in report cards. You are given 2 when you buy your license. An extra is in the book. You can also report your harvest online. Too many hunter don't send their cards in. I don't know why someone wouldn't, but unfortunitly a lot don't. Laziness, who knows? They don't even cost postage. Don't know what more you could do about that. Maybe some day we'll have to check in our deer like NJ and OH. Wouldn't that be pandemonium on openning day.

4) And lastly poaching. A crime and punishable. How do we take into account in the harvest report on poached deer? Ask the PGC. I couldn't tell you.


So to sum this all up. Harvesting a deer under DMAP- must be reported. Harvesting a deer under crop damage- must be reported. Harvesting a deer during any regular hunting season, and method- are obligated be reported. Poaching and taken unlawfully- illegal and those people usually don't report what they've harvested.

All four ways of harvesting a deer you have metioned and reporting it are either mandatory, or illegal.

3-4 and the 1 is illegal. I'd say the PGC gives hunters the chance to report their harvest. If hunters don't send in their report cards is that the PGC's fault? I don't think so. Factoring into the harvest poached deer and hunters not sending in their report cards? Well, I like the way you said it Thje best estimates are just that a guess.

[ACEarcher]

Makoman-

"The four WMUs were chosen because: WMUs 2G and 4B have ongoing deer research in them; WMU 2D is an area where antler restrictions are set at four points on one side, and is where the agency previously had deer research conducted; and WMU 3C is an area where antler restrictions are set at three points on one side, and is a physiographic area of the state where no extensive deer research has been conducted. Also, "the changes to these four WMUs will allow us to investigate the relationship between antlerless allocations and season length as we move forward with our deer management plan." The additional study is covering antlerless deer harvest versus number of days of opportunity, or the overall season length. The study will be lasting the next 4 years.

[WoodsHunter]

Hey Ace (Adam)
What do you think would happen say, We went back to a two week buck and two day's doe (third day if weather is bad) did not send in any report cards on what we had taken, and keep the PGC out of the picture completly. Do you think it would be the end of deer hunting or the end of PGC ? ? Say we just went back to the way it was, are we in danger of being overun with deer or deer would become extinct. I know there is poaching, where does the PGC come up with the % of deer that are taken this way, don't think the poachers are sending in their cards, also the same with the % on coyote kills, they have no idea how many coyote are in the state, they have no cards at all. Road kills may be a little easier to figure because they usually deal with the actual deer even though a lot of deer are hit by vehicles and make it to the woods and die. Just don't know where the PGC comes up with their figures, if a lot of hunters are not sending in their cards, the poachers are not sending in their cards, and the drivers are not calling in to say they hit and killed a deer on the road it just seems that the PGC are making up a lot of numbers.:huh:
The (PGC) just handing down a lot of rules & regulations, three point in this area, four point in this area, no doe huning in this area, doe hunting O.K. in this area.:nuts: I can see them in control of pheasant hunting since they are doing the releases in different areas, but deer, just have a buck season then a doe season the way it use to be. I'm sure there will be some nice trophy deer that will coming out of those camps, it happened before. Get the numbers back up and give the new (younger) hunters a chance to get a deer, even if it's a doe it will bring them back. There is a lot of the younger generation that are not interested in hunting, when you get a first time hunter or a youngster to go and don't see a deer it's hard if not impossible to get them back. As someone in one of the earlier post said that they don't even close the schools ( I don't no this for a fact)upstate for deer season anymore. There was a time when the schools closed first two days because there were no kids in school anyway. Just wonderng what would happen with no PGC interference, Keep the same rules as before one buck and a doe and see if the numbers rebound. :thup:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_160.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=_undefined)<---"My 8-pointer" some day...



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[David599]

cull the does... with enough to eat, does will have twins and sometimes trips.... you want more bucks... kill more does... and dont shoot the yearling bucks..

this point has been argued and researched over and over and over...

ask a wildlife biologist that works with deer herds...

my two cents...

[Makoman]

ACE: You mentioned that the DCNR is involved in the deer management policy. That is another problem. They are more concerned about "saving the forests" for the timbering interests than they are about the deer hunters. They would eliminate the deer completely if they had their way. The PGC is the agency that should be in total control of the deer management program and they should be listening to the hunters not the commercial interests. This will be my last comment on this thread since it is obvious that we all have very strong opinions on the effect of the concurrent doe season on PA's deer herd and are unlikely to change our colletive minds. I am off to my camp for 2 weeks to enjoy the bear season and buck season. I truly believe we have a better chance to kill a bear at our camp than we do a buck. I'll let you know how we do and will make a tally of hunter hours in the woods and deer seen. I know one thing for sure, THERE WILL NOT BE ANY DOES SHOT BY OUR CAMP!!!!! AMEN!!!!!

[fatboy]

Ace,

I am not disagreeing with the science, I am disagreeing with the PGC's numbers. It is just my opinion that they dont have a good grasp on the herd. I know what the party line is, but I am just a little scepticle. The PGC has always been slow to the punch. The closure diring the first week in certain WMU's shows that there is some merit to my theory. I would not be surprised at all if that trend continues. I have had the pleasure of being in Gary Alt's company a few times. The man knew the stubborness of the PGC with it's deer herd. He is no longer there for a reason. When I say his Co. I mean I have heard him speak a few times. He spoke on several ocasions of the mismanagement of the PGC. Again I understand the science, and agree wholeheartedly. I just disagree with where we are in the process.;):thup:

[RUSS0079]

I don't know about the numbers upstate, But I passed 3 fields in Chester County last night and counted at least 30 does in each field. The fields were less than 400 yards apart. These weren't agricultural fields, just normal, I'm rich and have alot of grass to cut fields! My daughter thought it was cool to see so many deer, but we must admit that is too many deer for a small space? Oh I reduced the herd by one at 1600 HRS. Going back to wack another tomorrow night, with luck. They may live in suburbia, but they still act like deer. Oh by the way, I like the antler restrictions. Cousin saw two large rack bucks on the State Properties we hunt in Sullivan and Wyoming Counties, those deer were not on the back of trucks. They got smart as they got older and are still out there servicing the does in the area. What about the deer herd in Maine? They don't have huge numbers of deer but their deer are huge and people pay big bucks to hunt there!! I wonder if the Game Commission is trying the same here? Just my two cents:D I say leave the does alone upstate, hit the agricultural areas to reduce the herd all around the state and start wacking and stacking the does down in Montco, Delco, Chesco and Phila Counties.

[WoodsHunter]

Acey
I mentioned it prior to deer season in Penna. and I'll say it again. I'm not sure about the other north/central counties but the hunting sucked in Tioga Co. once again. Our camp, 22 guy's, one 6-pointer and one doe(maybe 70#) I started a new post when I got back on how bad it was. Ace said that maybe there are no more deer in the area, that was my point from the get go. There were too many doe's taken in the last four years that now there are no deer. I have to admit, did see a nice 8-pointer on saturday before opening day but that was it. Saw a lot of trucks coming down from Potter Co., there was not many deer coming out of that county, Potter was at one time the leading county in Penna.
Hey Ace, you wanted to know where I hunt...
It borders State Forest & Private property (my friends) take a look at the area and go out 5 miles in any direction, that's where I hunt. Now tell me why you would think there are no deer in the area ? ? Could it be the slaughter of the Does ? ?:huh: I was warn not to go by my friends there but I like getting together with them and family, it's always good to see them. :thup:
Just curious on your thoughts on what happen to the deer...
Woodsy

[ACEarcher]

Couldn't tell ya Woods. From the look of the demography it looks good, but that's just satellite imagery. Many of the areas of the North are nutrient lacking. I bet ya the buck are still around just spread thinner. Like that 8 you saw the day before. Nobody in your crew got em. So maybe he's still around! You can't base a deer population of an area just on the first week of rifle season. With the exception of the first couple hrs of the first day they are spooked crazy right now. For the last 3 years I've gotten 8pts. Two years ago I got a nice 8 pt the first Saturday. Last year I got a basket 8 the first Thursday. I was just out doe hunting on Tuesday. I saw a racker! With a another 6pt. They find those area of low pressure and just stick to em. Needless to say I'm putting my dad right there this afternoon. Just the weather hasn't been cooperating.
Maybe at the time when we needed HR that area was reduce to much. I dunno. I'm just giving ya my opinion.

[WoodsHunter]

Hey Adam, I'm going to start hunting with you...
Three 8-pointers in three years, that's great. :thup:
Some day we'll hook-up, either down the shore, upstate Pa.
or the Wal-mart on Rt.309.
"Good Luck" hunting & fishing...

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[ACEarcher]

Yeah 3 8 pters in 3 years is awsome, but before that I was in a 3 year drought. College is the worst thing to happen to a sportsman, but when your done LOL no holds bars! I told all my buddies back at college. You watch and see the first year I'm done school I'll get a nice one and it happened. Not that the area I was in inSWPAdidn't have big bucks, it was just the properties I was hunting. You let me know when you want to go out. I enjoy guiding for ppl. When they get a deer I feel like I got one too. Wal-Mart in Hilltown or Quakertown?

[WoodsHunter]

The one in Quakertown (Rt.309) once in a while wife & myself take a ride up there from N.J., it's a day out plus the workers there seem a little more understandable when they talk. They got that mid-state 'twang but it's easier to understand then some of the stores in the Phila/N.J. area.
I use to fish Noximixion when I had my small boat, use to do good there.
I only used the rifle range there once, saw how it was ran, never went back, a lot of a$$holes. Not sure if you even live near this area but if so you know where I'm talking about. One thing I really like there was the little 5 & 10 store that was in town, just like looking at all the models in he window, still had penny candy, root beer from the counter, it was great, like going back to the 50's. But it was the detail on the model planes that I really enjoyed, I must of built a 1,000 of them when I was small.
In any case not much more to talk about on deer season, as they say that was last year. :thup:

[freedom]

Yeah 3 8 pters in 3 years is awsome, but before that I was in a 3 year drought. College is the worst thing to happen to a sportsman, but when your done LOL no holds bars! I told all my buddies back at college. You watch and see the first year I'm done school I'll get a nice one and it happened. Not that the area I was in inSWPAdidn't have big bucks, it was just the properties I was hunting. You let me know when you want to go out. I enjoy guiding for ppl. When they get a deer I feel like I got one too. Wal-Mart in Hilltown or Quakertown?

" I enjoy guiding for ppl. When they get a deer I feel like I got one too."

dude those few words speak volumes of the kind of sportmens your turely are..

the doe killing thing is money management;) nothing more,nothing less..

[ACEarcher]

Thanks Freedom. I really appreciate that comment. Thanks again!

[WoodsHunter]

Hey Ace,
If you think that College interferes with hunting, obviously
you were never in the military...:naughty:

[coproc1]

It's the same in NJ amd PA, will shoot them out before long.

[ECRETzone27]

hope they change that

[Esetterman]

ACE,
thats funny i went to college to hunt more what the hell schools did you go to .... i had classes only 2 or 3 days a week and that was when i went! hunted everyday and still passed with a B average... my senior year i had dallas on more birds by the time he was 7 months old than most dogs see in a life time and them were all wild grouse and woodcock! i also bear hunted deer hunted turkey hunted duck hunted and ate trout atleast once a week for dinner!..... bad excuse! o sorry get back to the deer thing im enjoying reading this one

[ACEarcher]

Hun I'd go back to college anyday! LOL had more fun then than any other time. Still got way more friends out that way too. So yeah any who.

I think later and I mean far later we're going to have even more liberal hunting of antlerless because of the ways hunting numbers has been slowly declining, but thats far from now.

[fraid.knot]

most privete ground in pa still have good numbers of deer most areas they hunt public land to save the own deer and complane to keep those nusence hunters off the land it should be law that they cann't stop the state from lowering there herds like they do on public land in bucks and montgumery there are areas that they run around like rabbits and then the state pays someone 110.00 bucks a deer to get the removed like pennypack woods or fed land valleyforge there sould be laws making it mandatory to allow hunters first try just my thoughts but I'm just an old fat man and most don't care:huh:

[ub1243]

i was going over this post again.
some guys are seeing the same thing i have in tioga. you can't manage private land and state land the same, the hunting pressure is different.

i told my father i will not be going up this year. i have hunted tioga since i was 16. now the herd crashed, on state land. i will not return till the herd improves. that will take some serious changes on the doe harvest. i simply would rather hunt some place that i see deer. i see more deer in one afternoon in south jersey then a week in tioga, hunting dark to dark.
i will really miss hunting with my father that week, and the other three guys. they are giving it a few more years. if things don't change, they are going to stop going to pa also.
if this is what they want, lower deer numbers, they sure got it. they will now see fewer hunters spending money at the local mom and pops.

[Y-BUC-BILL]

See my post under Deer Hunting....Zone 19....I need your help.

[Y-BUC-BILL]

Penna.has mismanaged their herd since I started hunting there in the late 50's
Gary Alt was the leader of the pack.The deer season reached a new level when they combined buck and doe for 2 weeks.I can't understand how anyone can get any pleasure out of shooting a doe.

[Ole 20 Point]

Penna.has mismanaged their herd since I started hunting there in the late 50'sNot too many will argue that point except those that are part of the PGC crowd. But the hunters themselves have a lot of blame to go around as well. ;)

Gary Alt was the leader of the pack.The deer season reached a new level when they combined buck and doe for 2 weeks.A/R was a great idea and, at least in NE PA, the racks are of much higher quality now. The combined buck and doe for two solid weeks, not such a good idea. :please:

I can't understand how anyone can get any pleasure out of shooting a doe.Sorry sir, but that's a load of crap. :naughty: Last night I took a wily and wary doe with the bow that I found to be quite a challenge and a whole lot of fun. :thup: We purposely didn't take a single doe off our NE PA properties to save a few. But down in SE PA the homeowners need help with taking the does out...and that's where I get that venison now. :yahooo:

[ACEarcher]

Penna.has mismanaged their herd since I started hunting there in the late 50's
Gary Alt was the leader of the pack.The deer season reached a new level when they combined buck and doe for 2 weeks.I can't understand how anyone can get any pleasure out of shooting a doe.

Mismanaged hun? Please tell me how? :nuts:

Pleasure??:please: Hmm I don't think that is a good word that describes it. Maybe substance would be better? In layman's terms meat maybe? Food? Consider the habitat and the heard overall in general. The does eat a lot of food. Hunting (including taking of does) helps the heard by hopefully leaving enough food for the surviving deer to make it through the winter.

[KOKEMAN]

Just joining conversation.I have never in my years of hunting found multiple skeletal remains of a deer. If so i would support the theory of deer over populating areas where there is no food and not making it thru the winter.My self as a habital hunter same place for 20 years in my experience the deer population has declined dramatically when buck and doe was combined and bonus tags and green stamps were available. It was like a war zone shots every minute during early hours.I under stand quality vs quanity but when bringing a novice hunter in the woods and not seeing a deer most likely is not going coming back.

[mudmarlin70]

Mismanaged hun? Please tell me how? :nuts:

Pleasure??:please: Hmm I don't think that is a good word that describes it. Maybe substance would be better? In layman's terms meat maybe? Food? Consider the habitat and the heard overall in general. The does eat a lot of food. Hunting (including taking of does) helps the heard by hopefully leaving enough food for the surviving deer to make it through the winter.

Save your breath Ace.. Bill has gone down this road since before buckbarn on drydock in bassbarn. He longs for 80-100 deer per square mile with lots of gunnin opportunity. Calls that a "great deer herd" and has been critical if not antagonistic of anyone who shoots does, regardless of the herd status.

He is absolutely correct in holding off where numbers are at or below the carrying capacity, I agree with him 100% there, but the problem is he doesnt stop there. Everyone that shoots does is wrong...more is better...yadda yadda yadda. Offer whatever number you want per square mile...I've never gotten him to agree that any number is "too many" and that does need to be culled. Not once.

[mudmarlin70]

Just joining conversation.I have never in my years of hunting found multiple skeletal remains of a deer. If so i would support the theory of deer over populating areas where there is no food and not making it thru the winter.

Kokemon, Agreed, but it's just not about mortality in yarding areas which we dont see around here, it's about overall health. I've shot five and six year old does up here in what is good overall habitat that weighed less than seventy pounds. They may not be dieing, but it sure isnt healthy for the entire herd...it's an indictment on the habitat being overbrowsed and overpopulated. And before Bill or others jump on me, I'm definitely not talking about alot of the traditional deer range, where numbers have been pummelled by a blanket approach of NJ div. of Fish and Wildlife. Those areas are long overdue for some protection from overharvest, The problem is the reluctancy of FIsh and WIldlife to change out of fear of lost revenue. They're wrong in what they're doing and what they've done, but they're also between a rock and a hard place. A separate regulation set needs to exist for all public lands regardless of the geographic DMZ they fall under. Permit sales there would suffer, but that would atleast be a start.

[chad w]

we have taken 2 1/2 3 1/2 year old deer with 1" stubs they aren't help the herd

[ACEarcher]

You've shot 1"spikes that where aged at 2 1/2yrs and 3 1/2yrs?

[saltydawg]

You've shot 1"spikes that where aged at 2 1/2yrs and 3 1/2yrs?

I find that hard to believe, but I guess it is possible. They should be taken out of the population anyway to improve gene stock.

[chad w]

yes its true glad to get meat for family nice to get a big buck but still a trophy of sorts it gave it's life for our family still one of god's beautiful creatures taste great in pot roast or next to cornbread and tatters

[stonerod]

I remember reading something quite awhile ago, published by PA Fish & Game, stating that the best way to control deer population was to remove does. They stated that by the fall hunting season the does were pregnant and each doe removal could count as a 3-deer reduction. The balance of does to bucks would be controlled by "natural selection".

I think the theory of natural selection is "way skewed" by human population, food sources, no hunting zones, climate variations and now out of control hunting pressures.....too much in some areas and none in others.

If does drop three fawn in no hunting areas, eventually the population expands to a nuisance level and some of the population migrates. If they migrate into a controlled hunting zone, that throws off the so-called natural selection and can change the buck to doe ratio.

A buck can supposedly service 20 to 30 does but, in the PA woods, I've never seen a buck with more than 7 to 8. Let's say that natural selection allows 1 buck to 10 does, unless we micro manage each zone we really don't have correct impact data. That could mean the overpopulated areas could have a 30 to 1 ratio, and the Game Commission would promote a higher kill rate.

Bottom line is that without micro managing, in the 1 to 10 areas, remove the buck and remove the does.......do the math.

[nick351]

did any body say what about the locals shooting deer year round that can't help

[chad w]

out at the area we had got 1" spikes from my cousin got a 5 pt aout 4 1/2 yrs 130 lbs thick bases on new years mornin had 5deer in front of me 2 bucks ticklin horn one ran off cicled around 25 yards away from me 5 to 6 inch spikes looked pretty healthy let him walk hope he'll be bigger next 2 years if what we are doin works for their growth and health

[levan]

i hunt in luzerne county and see plenty of doe plusalot of nice bucks we have a 4 point rule at my camp which is working out great but as far as the doe's go there are plenty of them around and i want everyone at our camp to take one so the heard doesnt get overpopulated and destroy all of the food plots and move on to a different area

[philjam]

Penna.has mismanaged their herd since I started hunting there in the late 50's
Gary Alt was the leader of the pack.The deer season reached a new level when they combined buck and doe for 2 weeks.I can't understand how anyone can get any pleasure out of shooting a doe.

Here in my little corner of PA paradise, deer are abundant and LARGE (one buck head had to be mounted on a mule deer form.) Me and 2 buds filled enough tags to make our yearly goal of meat food for our extended
families. (Super bowl sunday is traditional venison sausage making day - 50# this year, 100# when you add in the pork, and other ingredients.)

It seems like you are holy and rightous, so much better than us dirt grubbing cave people. I aspire to your moral superiority. I bow to you oh your mighty-ness. :bow:

[Full Draw]

I agree with you man. We have it good. The last couple years have been great. Hunted hard this year with my 13 year old son in 5C, 4C and even 2G. Killed deer in all 3 zones. Places in 5C and 4C are loaded w/deer. Not so much in 2G but huntable.
Freezer is full and life is good
My 13 year old already realizes an old lead doe is way tougher to harvest than 90% of the bucks and you could probaly up that to 100% of the bucks during the rut. A lot of people still think like its 1940 and you should only be allowed to kill one buck. They often try to imply shooting doe isn't as challenging or pleasureable or whatever. I stood near the PGC booth at the Sportsman Show on Monday
some hunters were giving the officers their opinions. Pretty funny stuff. Kind of scary but at the same time funny.

[ronnytell]

What I'm adage is we should not shoot adolescent bucks and does. Let them grow. These clubs that drive for does are not acceptable for the herd. Period. The bow hunters and muzzle loaders can autumn abundant antlerless deer and canyon on the buttons. Hears a thought, back the majority of hunters are 9-5 mon-fri workers, accord them sunday. That abandoned will advice them autumn enough.

[robhunt]

I have heard some where shooting more doe actually creates more bucks. Not sure how but it does. But I am not seeing how that helps once a club goes in and shoots every brown thing that moves. I drive but we shoot bucks only at my club. I do shoot doe during muzz and archery. But the place I bow hunt is for crop damage.

[The Ridge]

What I'm adage is we should not shoot adolescent bucks and does. Let them grow. These clubs that drive for does are not acceptable for the herd. Period. The bow hunters and muzzle loaders can autumn abundant antlerless deer and canyon on the buttons. Hears a thought, back the majority of hunters are 9-5 mon-fri workers, accord them sunday. That abandoned will advice them autumn enough.

Ummmm What are you saying:huh::eek:

[njhunter11]

Ummmm What are you saying:huh::eek:

I feel stupider just from reading that:confused:

[robhunt]

I feel stupider just from reading that:confused:

They r trying to mess with your head