2009 PA buck kill significantly lower

[Makoman]

Just read an article stating that the buck kill in PA for 2009 was 11% lower than the 2008 kill. Just wonder what the PGC "spin" is regarding the reason.

[Ole 20 Point]

I figure it's because not enough guys hunted with a xgun. :p

[Makoman]

20 Point: I think you must be a secret agent of the PGC!!!!!!!

[Ole 20 Point]

Nah, that's Ace! :razz:

[ACEarcher]

Oh No my cover is blown! LOL:huh::D

[ACEarcher]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
March 22, 2010


Release #027-10


GAME COMMISSION RELEASES 2009-10 DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES



HARRISBURG – The Pennsylvania Game Commission today reported that hunters harvested an estimated 308,920 deer in the state’s 2009-10 seasons, which is an eight percent decline from the previous seasons’ harvest of 335,850.
Hunters took 108,330 antlered deer in the 2009-10 seasons, down 11 percent from the previous license year’s harvest of 122,410, but similar to the 2007-08 harvest of 109,200. Also, hunters harvested 200,590 antlerless deer in 2009-10, which is a six percent decline from the 213,440 antlerless deer taken in 2008-09. The 2007-08 antlerless deer harvest was 213,870.
Bureau of Wildlife Management personnel currently are working to develop 2010 antlerless deer license allocation recommendations for the April Board meeting. Calvin W. DuBrock, Game Commission Bureau of Wildlife Management director, said that in addition to harvest data, the staff will be looking at population trends, deer reproduction, forest regeneration, and deer-human conflict for each Wildlife Management Unit (WMU).
Harvest estimates for 2009-10 seasons are based on 105,192 usable harvest report cards (41,251 antlered; 63,941 antlerless) returned by hunters to the Commission, which included 64,945 reported by mail and 40,247 reported by the new online harvest reporting system. Reporting rates are determined by cross-referencing these report cards with the data collected from the 24,839 deer (7,942 antlered; 16,897 antlerless) examined by Game Commission personnel in the field and at processors.
For an explanation of the agency’s deer harvest estimating procedure, visit the Game Commission’s website (www.pgc.state.pa.us (http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/)), click on “White-Tailed Deer” icon in the center of the homepage, then scroll down and select “Deer Research” and click on “Reporting rate variability and precision of white-tailed deer harvest estimates in Pennsylvania.”
Yearling bucks comprised 49 percent of the 2009-10 antlered harvest. Since 2003, the percent of yearling bucks in the annual harvest has varied between 49 and 56 percent. Button bucks represented 22 percent of the antlerless harvest, which is the same percentage from the 2008-09 harvest.
The 2009-10 hunting seasons marked the first time crossbows were legal in statewide archery deer seasons for all hunters. In those 19 WMUs outside of the three urban areas, the archery harvest increased 13 percent. The proportion of the archery harvest taken by crossbows in the 19 WMUs increased from 15 percent to 30 percent. Crossbows have been legal in urban WMUs of 2B, 5C, and 5D since 2004.
Total deer harvest estimates by WMU for 2009-10 (with 2008-09 figures in parentheses) are as follows:
WMU 1A: 5,500 (5,400) antlered, 10,700 (12,600) antlerless;

WMU 1B: 5,100 (7,500) antlered, 9,500 (13,400) antlerless;

WMU 2A: 6,800 (6,700) antlered, 13,900 (15,300) antlerless;

WMU 2B: 4,300 (4,000) antlered, 20,000 (15,300) antlerless;

WMU 2C: 6,500 (7,500) antlered, 10,900 (12,800) antlerless;

WMU 2D: 10,000 (9,500) antlered, 16,000 (15,600) antlerless;

WMU 2E: 3,700 (5,000) antlered 5,300 (6,200) antlerless;

WMU 2F: 5,200 (7,000) antlered, 6,600 (9,100) antlerless;

WMU 2G: 5,200 (6,800) antlered, 4,200 (6,500) antlerless;

WMU 3A: 3,300 (4,100) antlered, 6,000 (7,500) antlerless;

WMU 3B: 4,900 (5,500) antlered, 9,100 (9,900) antlerless;

WMU 3C: 6,200 (6,300) antlered, 7,100 (7,300) antlerless;

WMU 3D: 3,100 (3,900) antlered, 6,300 (6,700) antlerless;

WMU 4A: 3,700 (4,200) antlered, 7,400 (6,900) antlerless;

WMU 4B: 4,000 (3,900) antlered, 4,100 (3,800) antlerless;

WMU 4C: 4,700 (5,000) antlered, 7,200 (8,000) antlerless;

WMU 4D: 5,000 (6,600) antlered, 7,200 (9,300) antlerless;

WMU 4E: 4,100 (4,300) antlered, 6,300 (7,200) antlerless;

WMU 5A: 2,200 (2,100) antlered, 4,200 (3,800) antlerless;

WMU 5B: 6,000 (6,800) antlered, 11,300 (11,200) antlerless;

WMU 5C: 7,600 (8,700) antlered, 23,200 (20,200) antlerless;

WMU 5D: 1,100 (1,300) antlered, 3,900 (4,500) antlerless; and

Unknown WMU: 130 (310) antlered, 190 (140) antlerless.

[ACEarcher]

Season-specific deer harvest estimates – such as archery and muzzleloader and rifle – by WMU for 2009-10 can also be calculated using harvest data from processors and report cards.
“Although we do not use season-specific harvest data for management purposes, we recognize the public is interested in these harvest estimates,” said Calvin W. DuBrock, Game Commission Bureau of Wildlife Management director. “For that reason only, we provide estimated deer harvest breakdowns for firearms, archery and muzzleloader seasons, but we only use total deer harvest estimates when making recommendations for each WMU.”
Season-specific deer harvest estimates are as follows:
WMU 1A: firearms, 3,300 antlered, 7,700 antlerless; archery, 2,130 antlered, 1,780 antlerless; and muzzleloader, 70 antlered, 1,220 antlerless;

WMU 1B: firearms, 3,500 antlered, 7,800 antlerless; archery, 1,580 antlered, 1,100 antlerless; muzzleloader, 20 antlered, 600 antlerless;

WMU 2A: firearms, 5,000 antlered, 11,000 antlerless; archery, 1,770 antlered, 1,390 antlerless; muzzleloader, 30 antlered, 1,510 antlerless;

WMU 2B: firearms, 1,700 antlered, 10,600 antlerless; archery, 2,530 antlered, 7,930 antlerless; muzzleloader, 70 antlered, 1,470 antlerless;

WMU 2C: firearms, 4,500 antlered, 8,600 antlerless; archery, 1,230 antlered, 1,120 antlerless; muzzleloader, 50 antlered, 1,070 antlerless;

WMU 2D: firearms, 6,600 antlered, 11,800 antlerless; archery, 3,320 antlered, 2,050 antlerless; muzzleloader, 80 antlered, 2,150 antlerless;

WMU 2E: firearms, 2,700 antlered, 4,200 antlerless; archery, 970 antlered, 560 antlerless; muzzleloader, 30 antlered, 540 antlerless;

WMU 2F: firearms, 4,200 antlered, 5,500 antlerless; archery, 980 antlered, 520 antlerless; muzzleloader, 20 antlered, 580 antlerless;

WMU 2G: firearms, 4,400 antlered, 2,800 antlerless; archery, 760 antlered, 600 antlerless; muzzleloader, 40 antlered, 800 antlerless;

WMU 3A: firearms, 2,700 antlered, 4,800 antlerless; archery, 590 antlered, 530 antlerless; muzzleloader, 10 antlered, 670 antlerless;

WMU 3B: firearms, 3,700 antlered, 6,900 antlerless; archery, 1,160 antlered, 970 antlerless; muzzleloader, 40 antlered, 1,230 antlerless;

WMU 3C: firearms, 5,100 antlered, 5,200 antlerless; archery, 1,060 antlered, 810 antlerless; muzzleloader, 40 antlered, 1,090 antlerless;

WMU 3D: firearms, 2,200 antlered, 4,500 antlerless; archery, 1,050 antlered, 910 antlerless; muzzleloader, 20 antlered, 750 antlerless;

WMU 4A: firearms, 3,200 antlered, 5,900 antlerless; archery, 450 antlered, 630 antlerless; muzzleloader, 50 antlered, 870 antlerless;

WMU 4B: firearms, 2,900 antlered, 2,800 antlerless; archery, 1,080 antlered, 700 antlerless; muzzleloader, 20 antlered, 600 antlerless;

WMU 4C: firearms, 3,200 antlered, 5,200 antlerless; archery, 1,470 antlered, 1,140 antlerless; muzzleloader, 30 antlered, 860 antlerless;

WMU 4D: firearms, 3,800 antlered, 5,600 antlerless; archery, 1,150 antlered, 880 antlerless; muzzleloader, 50 antlered, 720 antlerless;

WMU 4E: firearms, 2,900 antlered, 4,800 antlerless; archery, 1,170 antlered, 820 antlerless; muzzleloader, 30 antlered, 680 antlerless;

WMU 5A: firearms, 1,600 antlered, 3,000 antlerless; archery, 580 antlered, 670 antlerless; muzzleloader, 20 antlered, 530 antlerless;

WMU 5B: firearms, 3,100 antlered, 7,000 antlerless; archery, 2,840 antlered, 3,000 antlerless; muzzleloader, 60 antlered, 1,300 antlerless;

WMU 5C: firearms, 3,300 antlered, 12,700 antlerless; archery, 4,190 antlered, 8,920 antlerless; muzzleloader, 110 antlered, 1,580 antlerless;

WMU 5D: firearms, 300 antlered, 1,200 antlerless; archery, 780 antlered, 2,620 antlerless; muzzleloader, 20 antlered, 80 antlerless; and

Unknown WMU: firearms, 0 antlered, 170 antlerless; archery, 130 antlered, 20 antlerless; muzzleloader, 0 antlered, 0 antlerless.

[Makoman]

I'm not surprised, but the buck kill in 2G was down more than 25%. For those of us who have camps out there, the outlook is getting worse every year. Too bad, we used to see a lot of deer and kill 6-8 bucks each year. Had a lot of fun celebrating whether you took a spike or a 10 point. Now, you celebrate if you see A DEER in 6 days of hunting. Good job, Gary Alt!!!!!!

[Ole 20 Point]

...we used to see a lot of deer and kill 6-8 bucks each year. Had a lot of fun celebrating whether you took a spike or a 10 point.

Thank all your 2G camp mates too, cause that didn't help any either. :naughty:

[ub1243]

the downward spiral of the northern tier.
gary alt did good, for a few years. hunters created their own problems, can't lay off the trigger. it went too far.
now, hunters making the drive up north, have stopped. beautiful country, but low deer numbers.
it's gona take a big change in harvest quota to get me to take that drive north.
then PGC sit at a round table and question why hunter numbers are dropping, why money coming is dropping, why won't the youth stay in the sport when they don't see any deer all week.:huh:

[Ole 20 Point]

the downward spiral of the northern tier.
gary alt did good, for a few years. hunters created their own problems, can't lay off the trigger. it went too far.
Agreed. We the hunters should accept at least some of the "blame" being tossed about for taking out too many deer from ther herd. Like it or not, in many regions of the state of PA, the deer herd did need a reduction as well as an improvement of the overall herd quality. Gary Alt is the easy target, and while his basic deer management philosophy had merit, the execution of the plan on a long term basis and with respect to the population variances across the state was not handled as well as it should have been.

JMHO but, where the PGC truly went off half cocked was sticking with the concurrent buck/doe rifle seasons for far too long to manage the herd downward. The other issue that permeated the problems of today was an extremely poor methodolgy for WMU population tracking and control. The regions managed were far too large and the rules of engagement for setting hunt dates and doe permits within the WMU's were severely lacking the need for more specific localized population controls and taking into account hunter pressure (i.e. the northern tier).

But again, the hunters that simply kept shooting any deer in sight should also take on some of the responsibility for the problems that now exist. It sucks, but in many WMU's we hunters now have to make a committment to back off the killing in spite of the allowed permits. If you see one deer in a week of hunting and kill it...:naughty:...well y'all can do the math.

Last season, in WMU 3C, we probably could have taken 3-4 deer as usual but we only took one, a 10pt buck. We let all the does walk.

BTW, the coyotes ain't helping this situation either!

[Makoman]

20 point: I disagree with your premise that I should thank my fellow camp members for the lower deer numbers around our camp in 2G. First, we have had the camp since 1968 and never killed a single antlerless deer. We hunt bucks only. Second, it seems strange that we had about the same kill numbers for thirty some years and then, along came the concurrent doe season and we no longer had a decent number of deer to hunt. Killing bucks during buck season does not decimate a herd but killing too many does will do it every time.

[ACEarcher]

Since w're going to get on the topic of wildlife management I'm going to put this in the correct place.

[ACEarcher]

So you consider 11% significant? Hmm


Boy I hope you never find out what the natural mortality rates are for turkey. LOL Sure have a lot of them around (except SE, Pa)

[Makoman]

ACE: I realize the natural mortality rates are very high for turkeys but they also have more natural predators as well as being susceptible to wet weather during the nesting season. And yes, I do consider an 11% decrease to be significant. In the northern areas of 2G we need less antlerless permits to get the herd back to a reasonable number. We could also use a concurrent bear season to get rid of some of the fawn predation.

[ACEarcher]

Ok we've been around and around this marry-go-round. We limit the antlerless allocation, then what? What do you suppose all those deer are going to eat? All that grows isn' food. Do you feel that their should be an exzorbit amount of wildlife for you to shoot if knowingly their isen't a habitat to support it?

Less deer hmmm. The audit went fine! Where can we shift our causes on now? O O O The bears and coyotes!

Lets try and keep this on the 09-10 season harvest numbers. Verses talking about the entire deer management plan.

Helped tag and process this huge bad boy today. Whoa got a great/scary story for ya. If ya wanna know.

[ACEarcher]

It did rain on the opener. Another thing to consider. The one day when the most people are out.

[ACEarcher]

Year…………direction and % of change from previous year
1991……………………….- 6 %
1992……………………….+ 9 %
1993……………………….+ 1 %
1994……………………….- 5 %
1995……………………….+ 9 %
1996……………………….- 16 %
1997……………………….+ 15 %
1998……………………….+ 3 %
1999……………………….+ 7 %
2000……………………….+ 5 %
2001……………………….- 6 %

After AR&HR including the change in concurent seasons:

Year…………direction and % of change from previous year
2004……………………….- 13 %
2005……………………….- 3 %
2006……………………….+ 12 %
2007……………………….- 19 %
2008……………………….+ 12 %
2009……………………….- 12 %

[Makoman]

I figure that means that the buck kill in 2009 was down by 23.1% from 2003. The habitat argument has no credentials in our area. We have clear cut after clear cut that began at least 25 years ago. There is plenty of browse to support more deer than we have. I hate to belabor the point, but we need less antlerless licenses and no concurrent doe season. Would love to hear the story re the bear.

[Makoman]

Forgot to mention that the numbers also indicate that the 2001 kill was12% higher than the 1990 kill. Must have been something to eat for those 11 years!!!!!!!

[ACEarcher]

9,400 deer shot in 2G. Significant enough? Other WMU's didn't get that many. So we limit the allocations? And then our herd is like what we used to have? Right? Nah What we used to have was rediculous and depleating our forest ecosystem. You have lil to no regeneration growth, few open area farms that offer the right balence of browse for deer. I don't know of the forest you hunt, but the majority of your area is WAY below average and has been for years. If your hunting land is the exception then you should have more. So tell me what kind of species of browse you have since you have so much of it. Ok you had clear cuts, but what grew back? Whats there? Poll timber maple? ferns? Conifers? The Susquhannock area of Pa is exteremly poor in habitat. Even if you 1 arera that you and your crew hunt is not going to make a difference to an animal that has a home range of a square mile. You and your crew haven't shot an antlerless deer in years, but were has it gotten you? All the other crews don't shoot antlerless deer in the area. Where has it gotten them? You should have tons of deer running around then by those ideas according to you, but do you? has it shown?

[Ole 20 Point]

So Ace, what's your point with all the stats? That we are to believe that all is well with the deer population?

Do you disagree that the deer herd was OVER harvested in all or portions of some WMU's? If you agree, then how do we get the herd back to where it "should" be, based of course on the available browse and forest growth?

Or has the herd been "right sized" to the existing habitat in most WMU's? Does that mean the deer herd in the areas where they seem to be so extremely low was done on purpose? And that the intent is to keep the herd at these low points in these areas? For how long? Is anyone actually going to explain any of this to us?

Or will the PGC et al just keeping pointing to overall total kills and saying all is well?

(Oops, sorry, I forgot we were ONLY supposed to talk about the '09-10 harvest #'s and not wildlife managemnt in general. Please forgive me...:D)

[ACEarcher]

Just wanted to show some data from the past several years.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=576872&mode=2

Here's the management plans for deer by the PGC. Look at productivity, deer population management principles, population modeling, goals and strategies for Pa's deer population management plan. Also check out the update.

[Makoman]

ACE: The clear cut areas are growing back with maple, beech, cherry and some oak. Also some popple, autumn olive and other species I can not readily ID. Regrettably, some of the other camps in our area do shoot antlerless deer. The greatest number of antlerless hunters however, are not camp owners/members but guys who come from down state just to hunt does. The timber companies open their roads and make it real easy for them. Are you hearing what other guys are saying about the lack of deer in the northern regions of 2G?????? We need to get back to a 1 or 2 day antlerless season following the 2 week buck season. Do you work for the foresty dept.?

[ACEarcher]

Do you work for the foresty dept.?
Sure your not thinking of the DCNR?:D



No, but do you represent the USP?:D

[Ole 20 Point]

Just wanted to show some data from the past several years.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=576872&mode=2

Here's the management plans for deer by the PGC. Look at productivity, deer population management principles, population modeling, goals and strategies for Pa's deer population management plan. Also check out the update.
I have read these documents multiple times. And I in fact agree with the basic premise for the management plan. That's not the issue.

The issue I am requesting feedback on is this: Has the PGC stated yet whether the plan is working? If it's not, then what needs adjustment? If it's deemed to be working then was the high harvest in the northern tier planned and acceptable according to the original/updated management plan?

And I was asking your opinion about these issues. Or are you required to toe the line and avoid the issue?

[Makoman]

ACE: No, I don't work for or represent the USP. In fact, I live in NJ but I do support the USP's position on the PGC's deer management plan or lack thereof. Yes I guess it is the DCNR. You know the old saying " If it smells like a skunk........"

[ACEarcher]

The issue I am requesting feedback on is this: Has the PGC stated yet whether the plan is working? If it's not, then what needs adjustment? If it's deemed to be working then was the high harvest in the northern tier planned and acceptable according to the original/updated management plan?

Actually stated? That I don't know. I personally haven't seen a publication stating so.

IMHO I believe that HR was needed and it did just that. It's the habitat that need to play catch up. Replacing years of what over population did is not an over the night task nore a couple years. Example it takes 25 years for red oak to get to the age it will produce acorns. White oak is even longer (50 i believe). How do you suspect to reverse the damage from years of over browse and forest decimation. We want to many things right away. This is not a food plot where we can just plant and watch it grow. This will take years to reverse. I just think many hunters became spoiled when we had those years of huge deer numbers. The north central areas aren't exactly the prime suitable habitat for whitetail. The best situation would be an area of dense thick woods with a lot of open pasture and grazing land. The huge large tracks of nothing, but open wood lands is not conducive of a growing herd. You should now that yourself considering you hunt Susquahanna Co. Their isen't much areas of nothing but 200-300+ acres of wood land without a couple hundred acres of open grazing land. A lot better suited habitat than the much larger tracks of nothing, but forest. Even our fawn mortality studies show this. Much of 2G had fawn mortalities of 50% (i think it might be a lil lower though have to look it up). Farm land areas where up in around 70% survival. A WMU like 2G is huge and it still only has 26K allocated antlerless tags. They shoot more buck in 2G than doe. The oldest deer come from the 2G area. On the other hand WMU 3C is smaller, but it still has 26K tags. WMU 3C is more conducive to a better herd. It has more wood lot and field lot type terrain like I mentioned earlier. IMHO think WMU 2G is fine, but may in some mico areas harvest more. IMHO WMU 3C should harvest more antlerless. I've got a landowner here that owns 600acres. He has totally devoted it all to QDM. He harvested 26 doe this year on this land! He's got doe having triplets! And the place is still loaded with deer everywhere. The majority of this land is loaded with food. Food plots, exclosers, warm season grasses, etc. Moral of the story he has a lot of food and that is where the deer are.

You don't want the DCNR having their way with the deer herd in Pa. Makoman-

IMHO I think their are going to be some changes with this up coming meeting in April.

[Ole 20 Point]

I agree in principle with much of what you've noted Ace. And 10-15 years or so from now (or longer?) the deer herd as well as the forest in general will hopefully be in better shape and of a higher quality because of the current and ongoing management efforts.

Where I think the plan may have gone awry a bit is that we the hunters may not have exactly been told the whole truth of the management plan in large part because "we" couldn't handle the truth...just a suspicion on my part, certainly it's an unfounded opinion. You noted that large parts the northern tier could likely never theoretically be expected to support a large deer herd in a proper manner. Again, I'd agree with you based on the available habitat but guess what, that was never to my knowledge expressed as a clear part of the plan...i.e. to "severely" reduce the herd in that section of the state due to the poor habitat. Or am I mistaken?

So my open questions remain:
Is the management plan working?
If yes, then are we to expect the current low deer population in some of the northern tier to be managed in that manner for the forseeable future?
If no, what changes will be made to address the overharvest (or in some cases underharvest) in some WMU's?

[Makoman]

20 Point: Regrettably, I think you know the answer to your question regarding the future for 2G. Less deer, less hunters, less support for the local economy and more money for the timber companies and insurance companies. The "good old days" are gone forever. We have reconciled ourselves, at our camp, to be lucky to take 1 or 2 bucks among 14 hunters for the first week of buck season. Worse yet, most guys expect to see fewer than 2 or 3 deer in 6 days of hunting. I'm not a forest expert like ACE but I still find it hard to accept the PGC's contention that our forest can't support a larger herd. Guess I"m just too old and opinionated!!!

[ACEarcher]

I'm not a forest expert like ACE but I still find it hard to accept the PGC's contention that our forest can't support a larger herd. Guess I"m just too old and opinionated!!!

I never said I am a forester, forestry expert, or ever majored in forestry in college. That is a totally different science. Do not confuse forestry with wildlife managment. However, I do know whitetails. Including the habitat that is most suited for them.

[ACEarcher]

So my open questions remain:
Is the management plan working?
If yes, then are we to expect the current low deer population in some of the northern tier to be managed in that manner for the forseeable future?
If no, what changes will be made to address the overharvest (or in some cases underharvest) in some WMU's?

Actually stated? That I don't know. I personally haven't seen a publication stating so.



Try asking the the WMB.

[KOKEMAN]

Drive by hienz wildlife and see what will support healthy deer nothing. These deer somehow survive and strive to be over populated and nice racks. Trust me these deer are now in areas u wouldnt believe.

[deadeyedick]

Where I hunt in 3b we dont have the number of hunters as we used to have, thus less deer being kicked around to be seen !! I see enough deer and got my largest rack and sized buck ever last season, to keep me going North !!Most of my family gave up and fish for striped ones on the deer opener !!:huh::eek: Have at it Gent's !!:fight::D