Is Northern PA. really that bad?

[HUNTINC]

I keep reading reports on this site and others (and directly from a few friends) how few Deer they have been seeing "upstate". When I was young it was like Christmas hunting northern Pa, the amount of Deer seen was incredible. Can anyone confirm if it is really that bad and if it is why. thanks

[droptine]

coyotes kill fawns, bears kill fawns, game comission give out doe permits by the thousand, hunters shoot every thing that moves, 60% OF the does are realy button bucks, we are rapeing our own sport. just like the fisheries. me and every one in my camp buy doe permits and rip them up. pa is hurting bad, jersey will be next this is a fact:naughty:

[H&R slugger]

jersey is already halfway there

[Birdman2787]

Thanks mostly to the clubs that shoot at everything thats furry and brown. Wait a minute.....maybe if we can get these clubs to go down to the Ozark and Smokey mountains ranges and shoot everything that is brown and furry, the scientific world will get their Susquatch.

[Reel Quick]

Yep, pointie restrictions????
Saw 3 deer in 2 days. Spike and doe. Full moon who knows???

[HUNTINC]

I guess it's not like it used to when the opening day of rifle season was BUCK season. We never thought of shooting anything other than a quality buck! and we saw does by the hundred

[BarnesX.308]

me and every one in my camp buy doe permits and rip them up.

That's part of the problem. The more unused tags, the more the game commission issues. If everyone rips up their tags, the game commission thinks that the success rate is low. Therefor, they issue even more tags the following year to make up for it.

If you really want to get a doe tag to save a doe, you need to send in a report card saying you got one.

[H&R slugger]

That's part of the problem. The more unused tags, the more the game commission issues. If everyone rips up their tags, the game commission thinks that the success rate is low. Therefor, they issue even more tags the following year to make up for it.

If you really want to get a doe tag to save a doe, you need to send in a report card saying you got one.


...........................bingo :thup:

[KOKEMAN]

Absolutely.Before the intro of combined doe and buck seasons we would see herds of deer.That combined with green stamps ruined it where we hunt.We would hunt the top the mountain and literally see at least 50 a day.Each year it kept getting worse till now u are lucky to see a deer.Those were the days.

[droptine]

wow, nice answer barnes x

[H&R slugger]

the problem is. only a handful really care about the herd status. 95% of the hunters today just wanna kill a deer, so the doe tags just gives em more of an opportunity. and braggin rights. i cant tell you how many times ive heard " ive gotten 4,5,6,7 deer already this year " . and now they think they're "joe hunter". when the unlimited doe thin first came out, i was guilty of shooting around 3 a year, until i looked at the big picture. and yes when i was younger, when i went deer hunting you always saw deer, not always bucks. but there where plenty of bucks to go around. i go to the same place since i was like 12. and we got bucks regularly. its a tradition thing (this piece of land) more than a killing thing. and i havent seen a buck up there in 5 years now. and does in the last 5 years, well, i cant count how many ive since on just my 2 hands. i honestly believe that here in jersey its all about the money for all these permits. plus the fact that in certain counties. they want all the deer gone. they smash too many cars, and they eat too much of the "snobs' expensive landscaping. plus crap all over the pretty green lawns. deer have been put into the same category as the resident goose population " a naussance ". what is it now on the sept. goose season. 6 birds and ya dont need to have the plug in the gun ?. i honestly feel were fighting a loosing battle here. at least here in jersey. if they (the state) cared about the deer they would go back to the old days, there was a drawing for a doe tag, you only got 1 tag if you got lucky, and doe season was only 1 day long, AFTER buck season

[ACEarcher]

Quantity VS. Quality - whats better for the deer and the rest of the wildlife?

[deadeyedick]

Your right on Scott !! I hunt private land and nobody saw deer the first two days except me ( Got my largest 8 pt ever killed) Problem is, we used to have 15 guys hunt our camp, now we have 3!! Land has overgrown with multiflora rose and nobody to help control it !! There definately are not alot of deer around in the Northern tiers but for me their laughing at me as I walk by them in the thick stuff, and the deer know where to avoid hunters and go nocturnal !!Need to put more time in and you will see some deer !!Just my 2 cents !!:huh:;)

[H&R slugger]

you pa guys have way more land than we do over here, and in nj its not about quantity or quality, its about the revenue.

[deadeyedick]

Ace, I know guys who took the week off and left by Tuesday out of frustration !!(Not seeing deer) Less hunters ,less deer seen !!I know when I was a young buck, I would hunt all day and beat every bush to kick out a deer, now ,Ive hit a wall and cant do it anymore !! :mad:Dont give up guys !!:)

[H&R slugger]

me and my pop were talking yesterday about this. and i honeslty think this is my last year of hunting in jersey. between loosing 2 days pay, buying the liscense and doe tag, driving to where we go for the doe season, then back up again for buck season. the "tradition" is loosing its luster

[MattG]

coyotes kill fawns, bears kill fawns, game comission give out doe permits by the thousand, hunters shoot every thing that moves, 60% OF the does are realy button bucks, we are rapeing our own sport. just like the fisheries. me and every one in my camp buy doe permits and rip them up. pa is hurting bad, jersey will be next this is a fact:naughty:

Aint that the truth!!!! As is all the rest. In our clubs case were raping our future shooting all our 2.5 bucks. Other than that we haven't been hit as hard by herd reduction as a lot of area's mostly due to never shooting does in our 50 yr existence we provide them a safe haven and they know it. We'd rather shoot a doe than a 2.5 yr old buck but with the neighboring propertys and the increase in bear and yote pops they get enough of them.

[BarnesX.308]

I hunted 6 full days and one half day. I saw 3 does and 3 bucks. Saturday I sat all stinking day and saw no deer at all. I did see a cool fighter jet fly right over my tree and saw a flock of snow geese.

However, driving around the place at night, we saw 25 deer in one night. Where we hunt, the deer are there, they just don't show themselves in the day time. I gotta' spend more time scouting. :D

[Team Callin an Crawlin]

well i was up in clearfield county last week and my dAD KILLED A DOE AND THAT WAS ALL WE KILLED. bUT WE DID C A DECENT AMOUNT OF DEER WHICH WAS SUPRISING AND A couple elk but i think it depends on were ur location is but in my opinion its just as bad in southern pa than in northern in some places or atleast were i hunt but thats just my opinion

[Nanuk]

me and my pop were talking yesterday about this. and i honeslty think this is my last year of hunting in jersey. between loosing 2 days pay, buying the liscense and doe tag, driving to where we go for the doe season, then back up again for buck season. the "tradition" is loosing its luster

I feel same way . My dad and I have hunted hard passed 2 days in washington NJ driving up from Pt Pleasant every morning staying all day and saw one doe about 100 yards out with no shot and had 2 bears 40 yards Saturday morning that wouldn't leave go figure :huh: . I have land in NY that I hunt and have bought lifetime licenses so it costs me nothing but a resident in NJ cost over $ 200 if you get bow , gun ,doe tags, buck tags and hunt several zones , just nonsense . I think this will be my last year !!!! just not as much fun as it use to be :wave:

[freedom]

That's part of the problem. The more unused tags, the more the game commission issues. If everyone rips up their tags, the game commission thinks that the success rate is low. Therefor, they issue even more tags the following year to make up for it.

If you really want to get a doe tag to save a doe, you need to send in a report card saying you got one.

i don;t know how they count the herd #'s but i would think if i sold 100 and had 100 returned the first yr well theres too many the next year i sell 1000 and only 100 returned wouldn't that show a drop?

they must count the herd differently, or the only counting realy goin on is the sale moneys;)

the only way to save a doe is NOT buy a tag & NOT shoot one. pass the word:thup:

seems like the only thing makes people understand is $ let sales go to zero$... maybe thier hearing gets better

[IL Padrino]

I lived up state for 35yrs, hunted Susquehanna County from 1977 (I was 12yrs old) until 2002. As a younger hunter I remember seeing large herds of deer just about everytime out. We have a cabin up there and spent alot of time year round up there. Once the "Bonus Tag" came into effect the deer herd really took a hard hit. Hunters went overboard killing deer upstate, I know because I was guilty of it too. They wanted em dead and we helped. We got caught up in the "look how many we got" and never thought of what will be left for the future. I learned from this and spend most of my time Huntin SE, PA passing up some really nice deer and letting em get by me. I live in SE PA now and see the same thing happening down here, I buy doe tags now and never use them in hopes of letting a few for seed.

This works for me, and I don't judge others for what they do. I do know that you can definitely over hunt them. Just an FYI for us all. Take what you can use and leave a few for next time.

[Y-BUC-BILL]

Five of us hunted a private farm in Pa.Five of us saw a total of seven does in a day and a half.$ 1400.cabin rental.$101...a piece for non-resident nunting license.,plus fuel.Pa. has ruined its deer herd.When I first started hunting in Pa in 1958.,you could sit any where in the woods on opening day and see at least 35 deer.Through mis-management,we have what we have today.....NOTHING.Unfortuneately.N.J.is not far behind.

[BarnesX.308]

On the other end of the spectrum, we saw 50 does and no bucks. If you were lucky, you got a 135lb spike every 5 years.

And what do the 50 deer per acre eat in the big woods? There were definitely too many deer.

Although I do miss seeing a lot of deer. There must be a happy minimum somewhere. :huh:

[Y-BUC-BILL]

BarnesX.308
I hunted the big woods for years.You needed a 4 wheel drive truck to get back into camp..Great herd of deer.Good shape.Fed on the mast crop.Farms were many miles away.First buck I shot was a 10 pt..Shot two more 10's ,quite a few 8's
I sot a 10 and a buddy shot a 9.Stopped on the way home at a Penn-State checking station.My deer was 5 1/2 years old.The 9 pt. was 6 1/2 years old.The State had no control on that herd of deer.We had quanity and quality.Then came Gary Alt.You know the great job he did on the Bear's.Well he sure screwed up the deer herd.To bad we can't bring back the good old days.Keep blasting the does.Just because you can does not mean you have to.

[MattG]

AR's was all that was needed to get more bucks to survive the orange army past their first rack. Enough land up there in the big woods to support plenty of deer as long as there aren't too many consecutive years of poor hard and soft mast along with hard winters. The October Sat along with the 3 day doe season was fine, I could see them extending it to a week but making it 2 weeks concurrent with buck season was too much. Add the increase in bear & yote pops at the same time and the deer pops are suffering in a lot of areas they were once plentiful. Sad, fewer deer with a few real trophies around is great for those who have time to do nothing but hunt, but the PGC effectively killed the deer hunting tradition for a lot of people in a lot of parts of with the concurrent seasons. But, they'll stop going for it the deer will replenish (barring any other assanine ideas by the PGC) and the cycle will start over again so i'm not overly concerned...yet.

[H&R slugger]

On the other end of the spectrum, we saw 50 does and no bucks. If you were lucky, you got a 135lb spike every 5 years.

And what do the 50 deer per acre eat in the big woods? There were definitely too many deer.

Although I do miss seeing a lot of deer. There must be a happy minimum somewhere. :huh:



back when i used to see all these deer, i never saw a starving one. the heards were plenty healhy.

[BarnesX.308]

Great herd of deer.Good shape.Fed on the mast crop.

My concern would be that we don't have any oak trees on our property. If we don't have a good beech crop, we have no mast at all. Most of the place was clear cut so we have a lot of browse and little mast.

A lot of the SGL around us is just thousands of acres of mature maples. No food or cover.

Even back in the 1980s, we never saw a lot of deer on our property. They are spread out and roam around a lot. We used to hunt farm land and used to see tons of deer between fileds. In rifle season, all the neighboring farms and clubs would put on drives. The deer were all clumped together and always moving.

[half gaffed]

I think they are killing to many does. I have been hunting up there for 20 years we have always went over 50% on bucks until they started killing doe's during buck week this was the worst year we ever had. I'm not sure if I wil go back.

[ACEarcher]

Deer cannot survive on mast crop throughout the winter. They need browse. High starch food like corn and mast crop help, but browse is needed most.

[fatboy]

Deer cannot survive on mast crop throughout the winter. They need browse. High starch food like corn and mast crop help, but browse is needed most.

How do deer survive in areas where there is little to no browse?

[sj hunter]

Had a lot less hunters in 3a this year.

[MattG]

Winter browse is low quality everywhere crops aren't left standing. In the big woods they make due with what they got, over the winter their metabolisms slow and they don't need too much as long as they go into it healthy. I don't care how high the browse line is the experts say is the indicator of too many deer. I've gutted enough late season deer who's stomach's were full of laurel that were plenty healthy...before they were shot ofcourse....there is no shortage of laurel in the big woods, it along with twigs, stickers, hemlock and anything else alive they can get to holds them over until the budding and vegetation starts. Plenty of young striped maple they nip on comes up where the canopy opens too. Ofcoruse, if you have means to supplemental feed that doesn't hurt either.

[ACEarcher]

Yes they will eat all that is mentioned including tree bark, but all of these are called fillers or stuffers. They hold no nutritional value. They deer will eat them, but get nothing from them. Deer must burn about 6000-7000 cals per a day in order to maintain optimal body temperature. I think it roughly comes out to about 7-14lbs of food a day depending on what it is that they are browsing on. Also the harder a deer searches for a optimal food source the more they burn and much replenish. Optimal browse would be like maple, birch, dogwoods, sumac, etc. Browse that would be considered ok (as in deer will eat it, but it isn't was they prefer, and they are still getting some nutrition out of it) aspens, oaks, ash, jack pine, etc. Browse called starvation browse would be, hemlock, beech, red pine, spruce, any fir, etc. These are just off the top of my head from what I know. I'm almost positive that laurel is a starvation browse also.

When deer are not finding the browse they need either they move and find what they need or they start eating the filler browse. It gives them the feeling they have a full stomach, but in reality they are getting nothing from it and still starving.

[pebjr]

I hunted during bow season and gun season. I saw most deer at night in fields. Gun season opened with full moon and rain all day Monday then snow & windy on Tuesday. I left Tues evening, no idea where all the deer have gone. Point restrictions? doe permits? global warming? Susquehanna isn't what it once was for sure.

[MattG]

Yea ACE The low quality winter browse is more of a filler or stuffer than it is nutritional browse but it gets them thru as long as they aren't overly stressed as their metabolism's slow in the winter and they don't need as much as they don't move so much as long as they remain relatively unstressed. In any event, just because a lot of the available browse in the state does not give deer the best nutritional value doesn't mean we should kill them all....and that's what we're doing in a lot of parts which is utter BS!

[sj hunter]

Mail the card in for A doe even if you didn't take one.

[Reel Quick]

7- 14 pounds a day??
That makes sense it s a small horse kinda...
Never looked at that way. Just thought of them as deer and they eat any thing. Good post.