The Other Deer Hunters

[Makoman]

This is the subject of an interesting article in the June issue of Field and Stream. A study was done in west-central South Carolina whereby 60 newborn fawns were fitted with monitors. 44 were dead within 8 weeks and coyotes were the confirmed killers of 28 and probable killers of another :mad:7. Total percentage of mortality attributed to them is therefore 80%. I hope the PGC is being made aware of the rapidly increasing numbers of coyotes in PA and of the effect they are having on the already severely depleted deer population. Not that I am convinced that they really care!!!!!!!

[Ole 20 Point]

I don't doubt that yotes are killing fawns. I might question a kill rate of 80%+ though. The PGC isn't stopping anybody from killing yotes so what do you suggest they do about it? I think we need more yote hunters. I've never done it, and I can't say I'm all that interested in trying either. How many other deer hunters would say the same thing?

[ACEarcher]

I really don't think the PGC cares much about SC considering things are WAY different in Pa. 28/60 *100= 46.67 I didn't include the 7 unknows and you NEVER put your unknown variables into the equation without being 100% sure. Professional biologist aren't ever going to just say yeah probably yotes tack on another one. NO! That prob statement is the writer of the article. SC's total fawn mortailty rating could maybe be in the 80% (maybe still high) , but I highly doubt that it is 80% that is dependent on coyotes. Still 60 fawns is a very small study. Com-on do you think a study of 60 fawns is a good repersentation of an the entire state of SC. Pa's fawn mortality study was done with several hundred fawns. All which were radio collared.

I really want to try and make this point clear. Coyotes are not the made crazy deer killers hunters think they are. Coyotes are opportunists. They'll eat almost anything. Coyotes do spend considerable time mousing, but they'll settle in a second for a rotting road-killed deer, or a cat or small dog that strays too far from the house. Coyotes raising young can be a problem for farmers during spring and summer. Sheep, chickens and ducks are especially vulnerable. Most times coyotes kill what they need and leave with it. Fawns emitt NO SCENT at all! They can drop their heart rate down so low they can remain absolutly motionless for hours. The fawns have their own built in defense mechanisms. They aren't just helpless and getting eaten every day.

I have not seen any data that coyote numbers in Pa are "rapidly increasing". Their isen't much that you can do to just get ride of them. You would have to remove 70% of the coyote population annually in order to cause any kind of decline. Even then, coyotes - like many other species - have demonstrated an ability to offset population declines by increasing their litter size. It's spurred by a built-in biological mechanism that responds to population deficits.

If I find any info lately on coyotes in Pa that would lead to a "rapidly increasing population issue I'll be sure to post it. Otherwise coyotesaren't the big bad wolf everyone seems to think they are.

[Ole 20 Point]

Great info Ace. Of course the arguement you'll get is...well if it ain't yotes killing "all" the deer then where did they go? Couldn't be the hunters taking too many...or could it?

We used to take about 8 deer per year out of my camp but when it became obvious that deer numbers were dropping we backed off to about 4 per year. Even before doing that we had gotten real careful to not accidently take out button bucks. We can't control what everyone else and other camps around us does but we're doing our part. Hunters have to take some responsibility in all of this too versus simply blaming everyone and everything else.

[ACEarcher]

That is very true sometimes ole 20.

What I've learned and was taught was man has always feared other predators. You could say it's a competition / dominance thing.

I'll even admitt I wasen't a believer at first when the owner of the property I hunt the hardest (in Bucks Co.) told me he saw one. I told him he needed to get his eyes checked (there is a german shep next door and I honestly thought that is what he might of seen). This past season I found several sets of tracks in our first snow. So yeah they'er here. Do I think their is a lot of them? No. IMO not even a real huntable/trapable popualtion, but none the less they are here now.

[Makoman]

Obviously, the overkilling of does has been the primary culprit in the decline of the deer population in PA. However, if you have spent the last 40 years hunting in the same area and have not noticed a significant increase in coyote numbers, you must be blind!!!!!!! True, the SC study was a small sample, however, the 28 confirmed coyote kills and 7 probables is a very good indication of how deadly they are on fawns. Apparently, the SC fawns do not have the same ability to avoid predators as the PA ones do!!!!!!! I also should mention that 6 of the fawns were killed by bobcats which are also increasing significantly in the area I hunt. The point of all of this is that the PGC needs to reduce doe permits since the predators are doing the job for them. Again, I doubt that they really have any concern.

[Ole 20 Point]

To say the PGC has no concern is ludicrous or at least short-sighted. If that's what you believe then do your part for your region. Get your group to buy doe licenses, as many as you can get, then don't use them. Of course that's what they used to do in the old days and there were TOO MANY doe!

[ACEarcher]

OK MAKO!!!!

I dug out the fawn mortality study. Here is a breif exert of the study. At the bottom is a link to the entire study.

We estimated survivorship functions and assessed influence on fawn survival of road density, habitat edge density, habitat patch diversity, and proportion of herbaceous habitat. We captured 110 fawns in the agricultural landscape and 108 fawns in the forested landscape. At 9 weeks after capture, fawn survival was 72.4% (95% CI=63.3–80.0%) in the agricultural landscape and 57.2% (95% CI=47.5–66.3%) in the forested landscape. Thirty-four-week survival was 52.9% (95% CI = 42.7–62.8%) in the agricultural landscape and 37.9% (95% CI = 27.7–49.3%) in the forested landscape. We detected no relationship between fawn survival and road density, percent herbaceous cover, habitat edge density, or habitat patch diversity (all P>0.05). Predation accounted for 46.2% (95% CI=37.6–56.7%) of 106 mortalities through 34 weeks. We attributed 32.7% (95% CI=21.9–48.6%) and 36.7% (95% CI=25.5–52.9%) of 49 predation events to black bears (Ursus americanus) and coyotes
(Canis latrans), respectively. Natural causes, excluding predation, accounted for 27.4% (95% CI=20.1–37.3) of mortalities. Fawn survival in Pennsylvania was comparable to reported survival in forested and agricultural regions in northern portions of the whitetailed deer range. We have no evidence to suggest that the fawn survival rates we observed
were preventing population growth. Because white-tailed deer are habitat generalists, home-range-scale habitat characteristics may be unrelated to fawn survival; therefore, future studies should consider landscape-related characteristics on fawn survival.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/fawn_survival.pdf

On another note coyote cover A LOT of territory. Also new coyotes move very far to establish home ranges. A great example of this is the NY coyote that was trapped in E.Strousburg this past winter. It had a GPS collar on it. The coyote was from NY it traveled over 150miles!

[Makoman]

ACE: Are you serious about that study? It was done in 2000-2001. The coyotes were just showing up in those years. It was very rare for anyone to see one. Now, 8 years later, we see them every time we are at camp. Usually several. We hear them howling every night. I don't know how scientific the PGC study was but I do know the SC study used DNA to determine what killed each fawn. Again, my point is that the PGC needs to reduce doe permits in areas like 2G and then do a study on how effective natural predation is. Whether you agree or not doesn't matter to me. Like I said, I have hunted out of the same camp for the past 40 years and have seen a significant growth in the bear, coyote and bobcat populations and a corresponding signigicant decrease in the deer population. Concurrent doe hunting and the 3 predators have decimated the herd. Fortunately, we have not had a signigicant winer kill in the past several years or our herd would be extinct.

[ACEarcher]

IMO (whatever it matters) I don't think it matters that much the study being 8yrs old. Maybe they'll do another one. Untill then If all the three pred you list truly decimated the heard then their would truly be no more deer left. Now deer are not their primary diet. They do not spend day and night hunting down every deer in the woods. If they did we wouldn't have any preds around because their would be no deer around. True?
If you see coyote everytime you go to camp and hear coyote everytime you go to camp then why don't you try and hunt them. Do a couple of the coyote hunts and maybe try to win a couple grand. Usually Mosquito Creeks top prize is around 8-9K every year. I don't know any camp or anybody who hears and sees coyotes everytime they go to camp or property.

Are you truly upset about the antlerless allocation amounts or the coyote population and the effect on deer? Both are very different.

And you do not have a concurrent two week antlerless season anymore. You only have one week of antlerless and two weeks of antlered (only talking about rifle)

[Makoman]

Our camp participates in the Mosquito Creek hunt as well as 2 other hunts. Unfortunately, they are not that easy to kill unless you have dogs. Even the 1 week concurrent doe season is too much. Last year, the kill in our zone was nearly identical to the previous year. I am for going back to a separate, 2 day season for does. Re predator kill, I did not say the predators decimated the herd. I said the concurrent doe season in conjunction with a continuing increase in predators was responsible. And yes, the study done in 2000-01 is not valid now. If you don't believe me, come up to McKean County and talk to the natives. Trappers are taking more and more coyote and bobcat. One guy I know caught 6 bobcat this year but didn't have the permit to keep one. He also had 13 coyotes. What would be wrong with going back to a 2 day special doe season for about 4 years and then taking a survey to determine the health of the herd? Naturally, this would not apply to the southern counties but just to the "Big Woods" areas. Like it or not, fawn kills by bear, coyote and bobcat must be taken into account in the management equation.

[ACEarcher]

Now, 8 years later, we see them every time we are at camp. Usually several. We hear them howling every night.

But with all these coyotes you have running around I'm sure you wouldn't need dogs.:p;) I wanna coyote hunt at your place!:p


I did not say the predators decimated the herd. I said the concurrent doe season in conjunction with a continuing increase in predators was responsible.

Ok.....

And yes, the study done in 2000-01 is not valid now.

LOL Says who? Why wouldn't it be valid?:confused:

If you don't believe me, come up to McKean County and talk to the natives. I think they prefer to be called locals. Last time I checked their aren't to many Indians left in that area.:D

Trappers are taking more and more coyote and bobcat. One guy I know caught 6 bobcat this year but didn't have the permit to keep one. He also had 13 coyotes. Those numbers really aren't that high. I know people who do even better than that and on public land to boot. Where their are supposed to be no deer at all. :eek:

Like it or not, fawn kills by bear, coyote and bobcat must be taken into account in the management equation. And they are. Didn't you read they study I posted for you?:please:


You still didn't answer my question!! What is this thread going to be about? Are you truly upset about the antlerless allocation amounts or the coyote population and the effect on deer? Both are very different.

[Makoman]

I am very upset about the doe hunting permits. Again, you are missing the point. The increasing predator population alleviates the need for excessive doe permits. And a native is not an Indian. Look it up.

[ACEarcher]

Bears, coyotes, and bobcats have to eat too. We aren't the only one who depend on deer. And Yes Mako, I understand your point. Why else would I of have brought up saying that I myself have noticed more coyotes in Bucks County. I spend time in 2G too. I also do the tourny coyote hunts too. I know what your saying.
The native and local thing was a joke. Laugh a lil.:D

The increasing predator population alleviates the need for excessive doe permits.

Write to the PGC maybe they'll tell you something different than what I said. If you need contact info let me know.

[Makoman]

ACE: I, and several of my hunting friends, have written several letters to the PGC. In return you always get a "boiler plate" reply that says thank you for your letter, we will consider your comments in our decision making. To date, none of our letters have seemed to have any influence on the decisions!!!!!!!!

[ACEarcher]

And back on topic...... Deer and coyotes :shoot::shoot::shoot::D

[Jerseybuck]

Coyote control of the deer population is just another way for the goverment to limit the hunting population in their pursuit of gun control. The fish and game commisions better wake up. I'm pretty sure it was my friends nephew that had a trail cam on a den and during the fawning season, the yotes averaged close to 1 fawn a day.
And hey, the Princetonite's would rather hit a mean ole coyote then Bambi any day.

[ACEarcher]

Coyote control of the deer population is just another way for the goverment to limit the hunting population in their pursuit of gun control.

Think so?

As far as coyote harvest in Pa they are open year round. The only other way of harvest (legally and sportsmen like) is trapping, but their is a season for that.

[ACEarcher]

Can anybody show a pic of coyotes with a FAWN from either Pa or NJ? This is pretty much the honor system, but I thought it might be worth a shot. I know of a fox den at one of my spots, but no coyote dens otherwise I'd get my own pic. A lot of people talk about the coyotes taking away fawns everyday. I'm not calling anybody out. I think it would be an interesting pic to show. Since it is such a topic of discussion.

[ACEarcher]

Prime example.

I do know that a coyote typically like to rip and tear his prey up into manageable pieces, but it would be hard to tell they if that was not a road kill. Sure they whole fawn in his mouth could be road kill, but probably less likely.

[mudmarlin70]

saw one posted recently on another nj board adam, but dont know if it was jersey, pa or elsewhere. I dont believe it's a primary foodsource, but during fawning I do believe they take their fair share. I have seen dogs running a mature deer even in the fall. Saw one chasing a spike buck in the great swamp wildlife refuge. It was absolutly intent on chasing it....dont know what he would have done if he caught it!

[10 guage Tim]

I hunt ohio and illinois and indiana alot
the yotes been there along time the deer population is great because of management you can only 1 buck for any season and maybe 3 does depending on zone

[ronnytell]

Bears, coyotes, and bobcats accept to eat too. We aren't the alone one who depend on deer. And Yes Mako, I accept your point. Why abroad would I of accept brought up adage that I myself accept noticed added coyotes in Bucks County. I absorb time in 2G too. I as well do the tourney coyote hunts too. I perceiver what your saying.