English Setter training...first time....need help!

[IronSpirit]

My Dad has a 15 week old English Setter named Twist. Very lovable dog...he's read some books and at this point I'd like to hear some personal experience from local guys who have trained bird dogs. Ideally it would be great to find somebody who could work with my Dad and train him how to train Twist hands on. If anybody on here does this type of training or has a contact number for someone who does it it would be greatly appreciated.
What age should Twist begin his training? I want my Dad to get Twist into obedience classes right away, should he bother with basic obedience stuff?
All tips/recommendations are very much appreciated!

[Setterman]

Reading as much as possible about training cannot be disputed. A book we've passed around in our family for years is: The Complete English Setter by Davis Tuck, revision by Elsworth S. Howell from Howell Book House. ISBN 0-87605-115-8.

Get a subscription to Pointing Dog Journal or at least join their forum. Both are invaluable.

I found this link on the web and I'm sure someone here would be happy to help give pointers for a new dog: http://www.englishsetterclub.com/default.html

[Cat]

Birds, Birds and more birds and then more birds. Obediance yes and the basics. Go to Lion Country and get there catalog because you need some things. Check cord is very important and a necessity. My setter is 5 and from a pup she has been a sweet dog. I have a Tyman and she's a big girl 61 pounds. Nothing is more classic seeing her on lock down on a wood cock or a quail because they hold tight rather than a road runner. The dog will learn to hold a bird and how quick depends on the amount of birds she has to work with. i was told by my breader to give her time and one day it just comes together. The dog needs to be loved and know with out a doubt she the apple of your eye. My dogs not perfict but shes a bird dog and has a great nose.

Rick Smith tapes, John Long book. I never forced this dog to do anything. It all depends what stock your dog came from to the amount of work the dog might need also. Some dogs just mature naturally.

I can tell you this that when your dog stats with the things your ecpecting in the field naturally that you didn't teach her it can drive you to your knees and if your like me can be overwelming.

As I type this the memorys are flowing through my mind and i am reliving past hunts. My dog see's over 200 birds a year and she knows what a bird is and I can gun her on any bird and she will perform.

When they say dog is mans best friend i think it is an understatement when he has a working gun dog.

if I didn't know better some times I think this dog is human because I can just look at her when she looks at me and we have that conection.

Any dog will try yopur patience at times but thats when you have to inforce the alpha dog. I have gotten a collor but have never used it once. I put it on her when I got it and never zaped her. I haven't been able to bring myself to do it yet. There has been days she isn't my dog and some one switched her and those days we just go home and go out the next day. This don't happen very offten but maybe a couple times a year. I don't force train. Never have and don't want any dogs that you have to.

Good goin with your setter if shes anything like my Abigail and I hope your dog is they will blow your mind but giveem time to mature. They are very smart most of them but do take persiverance and the more love and experiance they get the better the dog.

[Cat]

BTW Iron I sent you PM'S and a reg. e-mail about your long bow and never herd back. I still have an interest if you still have it?
Catcat53@aol.com

[Esetterman]

all it takes is 15-30 min a day with a pup.... gundog magazine is excellent mag to subscribe to.... ive trained 3 setters im not a professional but i love doing it, all my dogs are good dogs they keep getting better as i learn, i have pics posted of them on here... i dont think its ever to early to start.... the post before this hit it on the nail birds birds and more birds... the more birds the dog is on the better it will understand things.... obedience is easy too just repatiton, you can pm me id be glad to give any advice i can help with or meet up sometime and show you some things i know

[Esetterman]

one thing i dont see anyone talking about is gunshyness i get my dogs to the range as often as possible when they are young ... gunshyness takes a lot to get over you will lose seasons with a gunshy dog... take it to range and start a mile away and walk pup slowly into the range

[RUSS0079]

Iron Spirit,
Books are great but the help of a experienced trainer can not be denied. I've trained many pointing dogs. It does not matter as far as I'm concerned to which breed it is. That is a choice you need to make. I've helped several members of the Barn train and break bad habits. I come from 4 generations of bird dog handlers/trainers. What it's worth, I make money from my dogs and the degree in which they work. I have a vested interest in their hunting ability and their training. If you would like to talk email me and we can talk or I can talk to your Dad. ESetterman is one hell of a bird dog man. His life in his home state isn't even shadowed by our states. I value his opinion. If your Dad wants to do this himself, I could help him. If he would like to part with some of his money for someone to finish his dog or start it, I can suggest a trainer also. Either way, Hunt um up.

Russ

[jerseygsp]

just my 2 cents i would never take a dog to a gun range you have more of a chance of makeing a gunshy dog that way. put dog on bird and when there at a point when nothing else matters but getting that bird there chasing and going crazy than about 50 yards away have someone with a starter pistol fire off. if the dog doesnt notice the gun close the distance and repeat than when you feel that your dog is not botherd buy that move to a 410 than a 20 gauge than a 12 i would even kill a few birds with the 20 before i broke out the 12 but i would get the dog bird crazy before even thinking about bring out a gun again just my 2 cents

[Esetterman]

im speaking from experience.... the first time you fire a shot that the dog dont point your taking a risk... i have done it this way with all my dogs but one and that one took 3 years to break.... i dont disagree with your technique if that works for you....all my dogs get excited at the sight of a gun....and they start looking for a dead bird at the sound of one... all depends but i wouldnt say either method is wrong i do both... infact my first dog i used fire crackers to help get him over gunshyness... but i include my dog in anything that exposes him to what he might come across int he field rather its loud noises, water whatever it may be

[Esetterman]

i wouldnt take him right to range... like i said start a mile away and walk dog in so noise gets louder gradually... if you do things like this when the dog is young and take your time the dog will get comfortable... if you notice the dog getting nervous on the walk in you stop and come back another day you just play with pup so the noise is in background and keep his mind off it.... then when pup gets old enough and your running him on birds hes a step ahead he knows what a BANG is... it has worked every time for me

[Setterman]

I learned to put dogs on a bird and allow them to chase them while they are still puppies to build interest and then introduce them to a small starter pistol from a distance over time and then build up to that as training becomes more rigorous. That's how my father showed me, and how I've trained my dogs. After being around Setters for more than fifty years, we've never had a gunshy dog deploying this method. I've had Setters that don't like thunderstorms or fireworks, but were fine dogs afield and had no problems being shot over.

I agree with Russ. Seek out an expert for specific fine tuning when you get into a bind but a lot of training is common sense stuff too. A lot of the dog's natural abilities if he has them will take over and make your life easy.

[RUSS0079]

Atleast someone agrees with me. Since I never had a gunshy dog I really can't speak on it from experience. But I also hunt my dogs very young. Most NAVHDA guys look at me like I'm nuts. During feeding time,I would put the dogs food bowl in the normal place, fire off a round from the starter pistol from outside, with the pup in close relation. Then feed as usual. After a bit the dog will understand that the gunfire is related to something good, not bad. Also after the shot make a big deal and get the dog excited. I know we all have close relationships with our pups but we need to remember that they learn from repeating a task and getting this locked in their little doggie brain. If the noise scares them at first as long as you can make it fun, they will lose their fear. Have at it. Anyone that doubts me ask AceArcher. He had a similiar case with his GSP Ruger. Problem solved and all he had to do was make a big deal about the bird going up. Oh by the way get John Long's book also. I've learned a bunch from him, but I also learned a bunch from Dad, Granddad and GreatGranddad.

[jerseygsp]

like i said im also no expert its the way i learned how to do it i spoke with george hickox .when i first got my dog and thats how he explained it to me .the dog trainer i worked with hands on for 7 months last year did it this way for my dog . and all others that came in . i would not bring my dog who is at a pro trainer right now being steady for shot and fall.to a gun range the only time my dog hears guns is in a field with birds . and i would never put it around fireworks thats realy asking for trouble . not trying to start trouble at all i never realy respond to these i just hear alot about gunshy dogs and think that we make them this way by doing things like firecrackers and other things it my work 3 times but will it work 100 i have never heard of a gun shy dog when intro to birds first .but i have heard of gunshy dogs when you use firecrackers and bring them to gun ranges

[Esetterman]

understood but there are many ways to do things all dogs react differently to different things you have to do what is best for pup to learn... the dog i had that was gunshy actually came about from its first wild bird incounter.... pup went on point my dad walked over to flush bird the woodcock got up right in his face, he stepped back and shot at it ... when he stepped back he stepped on dogs foot .... it was a fluke accident, but the pup thought when that bang goes off he gets hurt....got to point where dog wouldnt point birds cuz he knew the shot was gonna go off... you could tell he was birdy because his instinct would set in but he wouldnt hold points.... he did eventually get over it, it was my first dog i was in 8th grade and i used firegrackers when he was running around not paying attention it worked.... i took him to range every chance i got, i didnt shoot at birds he didnt point for 2 seasons, i did everything and when the 3rd season came i was in highschool by then i gave up on him and he came around.... was a great dog after all that but i wasted a lot of time... there is no set way you have to train dogs whatever works is fine, you just cant be dumb about it if you sense your dog is not learning or nervous you need to try something else... like setterman said common sense... the dog i got now will start hunting no matter where he is at sight or sound of a gun and i dont even own a started pistol... just my 2 cents

[RUSS0079]

I say don't worry about the dog being gunshy, until it is. Hunt the pup and deal with those problems as they come up. Then you can worry about it. Start pup on birds. At 15 weeks, that pup should be pointing wings. Work on name, come, heal, sit and whoa! And lets go hunt some birds. That's my two cents.
Russ

[Setterman]

At 15 weeks, that pup should be pointing wings. Work on name, come, heal, sit and whoa! And lets go hunt some birds. That's my two cents.
Russ

I totally agree.

[Esetterman]

right on!

[Setterman]

I saw this quote in PDJ a couple of years ago, and thought to pass it on as I think it's apropos;

"Whatever you chose to teach your dog, remember, the only person that he has to please is you."

[Bird Boy]

if you live in mays landing new jersey than there is a guy, jon brudon, who helped us with our dogs. real good guy who knows wat hes doin. we started our dogs out with him at 4 months just for like basic commands at first. im not sure wat his number is but u can try to find him.

[RUSS0079]

I saw this quote in PDJ a couple of years ago, and thought to pass it on as I think it's apropos;

"Whatever you chose to teach your dog, remember, the only person that he has to please is you."

I agree. I don't give a grouse's rear whether you like the way my dogs work, unless you are a client. If you are a field trialer, go with the pro trainer or if you don't have time, then so be it. If you want to be able to answer the question truthfully, "Who trained your dog?" and you answer "ME" get some advise, read and work with your dog and you and pup would be proud. But don't feel pressure from others. Some dogs don't hold steady from flush to shot. I will not force break retrieve a dog as if the dog does not have "IT" I will not make it do it. BUT MY OPINION! I am done with this post unless forced by some sort of crazy comment on my opinion. Good hunting.
Russ

[jerseygsp]

hi russ i hope your not offended by my post i in no way am trying to be an expert or cause a fight i value esetters opinion and read his post and think his a great guy .just his training for gun shy dogs i think may work for him but not every dog and put out my opoion in no way was i making a fight so i hope you dont think im makeing crazy comments on your opinion just think when you give advise on that kind of training its good to hear other opions and than you make your mind to what you think is right again sorry if you got offended

[Esetterman]

agreed... i feel when training the more techniques and opinions you have... the more you know and when pup doesnt respond to what your used to training you can try something new... Russ, i also agree there is no better feeling than having a dog in the field doing what he was ment to do and knowing that you were part of the process!

[Esetterman]

To Iron spirit, i hope you learned a few things to show pup, there are many ways to do things, you pick how you want to do things and spend time with pup he will make you proud, one thing i can say about setters is they are eagar to please and learn! good luck!

[RUSS0079]

I am not offended by anything on this post. I make a point for Iron Spirit to make a choice of what kind of dog he wants and what type of bond he has with the pup. I have done it both ways and can say I have a stronger bond with the pups that I have trained and will not take a dog to a pro trainer as I have learned enough to help bring out the natural hunting instincts in my dogs and others. I have spoken to Jesse and I believe we are on the same page. If you need to take your dog to a pro so be it. I will not. I think Iron Spirit should read and maybe have someone take him under his or her wing, so he can learn the ins and outs of training. I know that pros are expensive and it is a much better feeling to work a dog that you helped hone its instincts. To all it would take alot to get under Russ's skin so no insults taken or implied.
Good luck Iron Spirit, I would help your dad train, but I live too far away. Hope all works out.
Russ

[Setterman]

IronSpirit,

You may want to attend this event with your pup in June to get some tips/pointers. I got this email yesterday from the NJOA:

The NJ Quail Project, a conservation project associated with the NJ Outdoor Alliance and the English Setter Club of America will be holding their First Annual Field Dog Expo on June 13th, 2009 on the spectacular grounds of the historic English Setter Club of America in Medford, NJ.

http://www.njquailproject.org/assets/events/fielddogxpo.pdf

http://www.njquailproject.org/assets/events/fielddogexpoflyer.pdf

[IronSpirit]

Thanks all! I have learned a good bit from this thread...this isn't my pup its my Dad's! He's not a computer guy thats why I posted for him.
Seems like the bottom line is the dog needs to know the smell of birds and not fear gunshots.
For the smell of birds, do you guys just buy pheasants and quail? If my Dad were going to buy birds and keep them in a pen in the back what would be the best way to utilize them in Twist's training?

Thanks again!

[RUSS0079]

Iron Spirit,
Dad could do that, but it gets very expensive. I suggest he buy a pigeon trap and then he can use them in pointing /retrieving. Plus he can shoot a couple over pup.
Russ

[Esetterman]

quail arnt to bad if you shop around you can find them for a few bucks a piece, easy to keep alive just some mash every day and some water... pigeons i have never used but i think they are the way to go because they come back and you can reuse them no idea on cost though

[jerseygsp]

hi Iron Spirit, there is a guy in franklinville he sells quail for 325 or 350 apiece dont have number think he is called franklin flyers something like i probaly go there in a week or two to see if he has anymore i can get number if you need it just let me no

[RUSS0079]

I get the pigeons from the local farmer's barns. it costs me the bird seed.