PGC management

[ACEarcher]

extended from the thread "Why not 2 buck"

[ACEarcher]

The PGC has caused their own funding problems. They methodically reduced the deer herd to a fraction of what it was and have seen a significant drop in license sales. Especially in non-resident license sales.


Please tell me how that is true?



Yes, for the safety and health of our own heard. How is this a bad thing?



I haven't read anywhere that their is a significant drop in license sales. We are losing hunters, but not because of management. The average age of the Pa hunter is in his upper 40's.



The reduction in the herd in our zone was grossly mismanaged since the dummies in the PGC decided to manage the entire state under the same guidelines. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that you can't manage NC PA's herd the same as the herd in Bucks County!!!!!! If you don't believe license sales are down, check with the PGC. In my zone, most camps are closed and the motels have few, if any, deer hunters. Also, the local youth are discouraged from taking up deer hunting due to the lack of deer. And, yes, the PGC has caused their own fund shortfall problems since they depend heavily on license sales to fund their program.


How could you say that when each WMU has different antlerless allocations?? These numbers aren't just made up or pulled from a hat. The allocation is based on the population, habitat, and people deer conflicts.



This is why "rocket scientists" aren't in the PGC. Think about it. Why would an area like say 2G have 26,000 tags allocated when an area like 5C have 92,000 tags. Just because 2G is bigger, has more wooded area, more farms, more hunters, more public land DOES NOT mean their are going to be more deer for everyone to harvest.



But yet deer are still harvested out of the NC areas every year. Infact a lot of the oldest age classes of deer come from remote areas like 2G. Why would you say the PGC has messed up NC Pa hunter just based on the area of your camp. Do you hunt the entire area of 2G? Do you spend every day in the woods? So how do you know their are no deer in the NC?



Hasen't the cost of living gone up? If I'm not mistaken I think it has. Please tell me if I'm wrong if it hasen't. Lets just use fuel for example. Say your a biologist for the PGC and your study area is 3C (NE PA). Now this is a remote area with no major highways. All driving is done on rural roads. Now please imagine the fuel costs if you must drive from East to West every day to gather data.

If you think the cost of hunting is too high in Pa you should view the cost of other states to hunt. Compare it to Jersey for example. Off the top of my head for a resident to do everything $385 (ball park). Now lets look at Pa resident to do everything $86. This is not including a federal duck stamp (PGC has nothing to do with that nore does it ever get to see a cent from that $15.50) and not including an antlerless tag(s). HMMMM $385 to $86. Now thats not rocket science to figure out.

Mako,please go check out the deer audit study on the PGC website.


Listed are the previous posts

[Makoman]

ACE: You hit the nail right on the head. The PGC bases their doe allocations on the deer population. Problem is, they do not have a reliable method of determining the number of deer. When there are very few deer, the doe allocation means nothing. I guess you haven't seen all the posts from other hunters in NC PA regarding the state of the herd. No, I don't hunt the entire 2G area but I do read the reports from camps in all parts of it. They are, basically, the same as ours. I don't recall criticizing the cost of a hunting license in PA. I think it is fair but, they need to improve their deer management program. Possibly, they and the DCNR don't really care about the deer herd's state but are more concerned about pleasing the commercial interests; ie, insurance companies and timber companies? Again, take a look at the realtor listings for camps for sale in the 2G WMU. Not pretty. Also, what did you discover when you looked up license sales for 2008 as opposed to say 2000 before the concurrent doe season nonsense was initiated?

[Makoman]

ACE: Just read this on the PGC website: "52 % of our revenue comes from license sales". From the same website, I looked up license sales. From 1998 to 2007, there was a DECREASE in license sales of 14%. Couple that with a loss in purchasing power of 30% over the past 10 years and you are able to see why the PGC is having trouble meeting its' budget!!!!!!! I maintain that the big reason for license sales decreasing is the lack of deer in PA"s "Big Woods" area. I witness the continuing decrease in numbers of hunters each year in our area. Sorry, but the PGC has caused their own problems.

[ACEarcher]

ACE: You hit the nail right on the head. The PGC bases their doe allocations on the deer population. Problem is, they do not have a reliable method of determining the number of deer. When there are very few deer, the doe allocation means nothing.

Mako, the PGC does have a very reliable way of determining the carrying capacity. They do this through a deer audit. Currently right now their are field crews out there probably as we type (waiting on a drop net or a rocket net) ear tagging and radio collaring deer. The deer are fitted with little white tags (look like small ear ring studs). This study is much like when you harvest a banded duck or goose. The radio collars are used during these netting activities because the deer are sedated. With these radio collars we know where deer are moving and how their patterns change. This is how we determine popultion data. All of this research will be conducted untill the onset of spring gobbler.

Possibly, they and the DCNR don't really care about the deer herd's state but are more concerned about pleasing the commercial interests; ie, insurance companies and timber companies?

It isen't the DCNR's job to be worried about a deer population. They are resonsible for the forests. No matter how many people think their are consperices about insurence companies or timber agencys no evidence of this has ever come up. If you have evidence of the PGC "not caring about the state of Pennsylvania's wildlife or a conspericy" (because the PGC is responsible for all wildlife in PA) please bring it to my attention.

Again, take a look at the realtor listings for camps for sale in the 2G WMU. Not pretty.

Mako, come on. It's a falling economy. Plenty of areas in the nation are selling out due to bank foreclosures. The area's of NC Pa can be very remote. How many great jobs do you think are in that area? How many big textiles plants are in that area (a lot) and how many people in that area just recently got layed off because of this bad economy? Judging the realestate market in NC based on hunting is a little far fetched.

ACE: Just read this on the PGC website: "52 % of our revenue comes from license sales". From the same website, I looked up license sales. From 1998 to 2007, there was a DECREASE in license sales of 14%. Couple that with a loss in purchasing power of 30% over the past 10 years and you are able to see why the PGC is having trouble meeting its' budget!!!!!!! I maintain that the big reason for license sales decreasing is the lack of deer in PA"s "Big Woods" area. I witness the continuing decrease in numbers of hunters each year in our area.

As I said before the average age of the Pa hunter is in the upper 40's. What does that say for the future of hunting. The 2nd most hunted state in the country and the average age of a hunter is in the upper 40's. Time's change. Less people are hunting. Is that the PGC's fault. No, how could one make a accurate judgement and say it's because of NC Pa hunter's aren't seeing deer. Here is an analogy say trapping. One of the oldest forms of trade in the history of man. Now how many trappers do you think we have now-a-days. Hunting may be a dying sport. Maybe not dying, but declining. Eighty years ago people hunted not because they felt like it, but because they needed too. How many people do you know hunt because the absolutely need too.

FYI- The PGC isen't the only agency in Pa that has a lack of funding today. Fast Eddie overspent Pa's budget by over a million. He put hiring freezes, spending freezes on all state jobs. Pen DOT was told not to salt as much and not to run their trucks as much. My friend the PGC isen't the only thing in Pa that is under hard times.

[Makoman]

ACE: The camps that are for sale are not owned by local people. Most are Ohio or NJ camps and the local economy has nothing to do with why the camps are for sale. It is because the deer hunting is so poor!!!!!!! Re the average age of hunters, it is very hard to take a youngster out and get him interested in deer hunting when he sits all day and doesn't see a deer. Obviously, I have no proof of any conspiracy among PGC and DCNR officials to decimate the deer herd in order to pacify the commercial interests. If I did, you may be sure it would be made very public. I do, however, believe that the commercial interests have a lot to say about the number of doe permits allocated to the various WMU's. We can banter back and forth about this issue unendingly and neither of us will agree with the other. I have formed my opinions based on hunting out of the same camp for the past 41 years and you are not going to change them. I can only tell you what I have witnessed in those many years, and what has occurred in the last six years, is nothing short of criminal as far as deer management is concerned. The concurrent doe season has been a disaster in our area, period!!!!!! With that, I rest my case. Good hunting!!!!!!

[Rum308]

:mad: I happen to hunt the same area in Pa. that Mako Man hunts. He is right on when it comes to the deer herd. No wonder the youth don't want to hunt. It's hard for anyone to sit all day and see nothing. Maybe a few song birds. Can't believe the Game Commission keep selling so many doe license? It's time they wake up! It's probably too late for us, but maybe the future generations will get some good deer hunting again? I sure hope so. Remember the sportsman are killing there own sport. Shoot everything that's brown. That's how some sportsman think. Well they'll really have something to bitch about when the deer herd is almost wiped out. They are on there way of doing that. Keep up the good work Mako Man.

[Barrell]

Pa game commision does not regulate the deer herd based on biologic carrying capacity. The regulate based on economic carrying capacity. Biologic CC is how many deer a given habitat can suport through the winter. Economic CC is how many deer an area can suport and yet still keep the insurance ,timber,and forest industry off their backs. I was a deputy game warden for the PAGC for four years. And although I beleive the above comments I made are true I beleive the increased doe tags have increased paoching dramaticaly. Can you guys that hunt at deer camps in NC PA honestly tell me that your guys dont put their wives or kids tags on their first deer, doe or buck killed? Can you honestly tell me you dont know what the term "camp deer" meens? Button bucks are the whole secret to bringing back the deer herd both buck and doe. We have to educate guys as to the importance of not mistaking buttons for does and protecting them. If your killing buttons at your camp you are destroying the herd.
When buttons are protected the buck population inctreases dramaticaly. Right now in many areas half the antlerless deer killed are buttons. Whe you increase the buck to doe ratio breeding and birthing takes place at the proper time. Another result is the ratio of does to buck fawns will increase slightly in favor of does. Does will also start to bear three fawns instead of two where the food sources are plentiful. Bick rack bucks running around everywhere is another benefit of protecting the buttons and the benefit I am most intrested in. Stop shooting the buttons!!!

[Makoman]

Barrell: We have had our camp for 41 years and are yet to shoot our first antlerless deer. We have no extra tags to use and none of us purchase antlerless permits. We hunt strictly bucks and only during the firearms season. I agree with your comments re the button bucks but would add "STOP SHOOTING THE DOES", especially in 2G. We need to rebuild the herd. A severe winter like the one of 1969-70 could virtually wipe out what few deer are left. Again, the commercial interests pull a lot more weight than the hunters so I don't look for any improvement in the near term.

[Barrell]

Barrell: We have had our camp for 41 years and are yet to shoot our first antlerless deer. We have no extra tags to use and none of us purchase antlerless permits. We hunt strictly bucks and only during the firearms season. I agree with your comments re the button bucks but would add "STOP SHOOTING THE DOES", especially in 2G. We need to rebuild the herd. A severe winter like the one of 1969-70 could virtually wipe out what few deer are left. Again, the commercial interests pull a lot more weight than the hunters so I don't look for any improvement in the near term.
I tip my hat to you guys...Ive had two different freinds get invited to Bradford County camps and at both a doe was shot Sunday night called the "Camp Deer" That eveyone would eat the night before opening day. And then the tag games started. By the end of the first day everybodys wife had killed a deer and they were not at camp.
I busted a guy once that had eleven doe tags and six buck tags on him. They belonged to all his freinds and relatives.

[50 yard fred]

game comission fundin problems, ha hahahahahahah how about they sart by stoppin all this sharpshoting and having ltteries for all these parks

[ACEarcher]

The concurrent doe season has been a disaster in our area, period!!!!!! With that, I rest my case. Good hunting!!!!!!

Agree to disagree. I understand Mako. Sorry to it more a while busy with work. Good Hunting to you too. Mako- You spring turkey hunt?

Barrell
Pa game commision does not regulate the deer herd based on biologic carrying capacity. The regulate based on economic carrying capacity. Biologic CC is how many deer a given habitat can suport through the winter.

I'm going to have to say thats reversed. The PGC used to regulate the deer heard based on an economic carrying capacity. Back in the days of "more was better". We all though the more deer we see means the hard is better. How false was that. The PGC is more science related now. Their decisions are based on biolgical data collected by biologist not WCO's.

Can you guys that hunt at deer camps in NC PA honestly tell me that your guys dont put their wives or kids tags on their first deer, doe or buck killed? Can you honestly tell me you dont know what the term "camp deer" meens?

What does that have to do wth the PGC management? That would be illegal and a warden should be notified immediately.

All the talk about shooting buttons. I hope you guys aren't blaming that on the PGC too?

[Makoman]

ACE: Yes, we do turkey hunt in 2G. We have always had good turkey hunting and the PGC hasn't yet figured out how to screw that up!!!!!!!! Just kidding.

[Esetterman]

works great in MI, they have several parks with deer population problems, they set up lottery, all the deer shot meat goes to homless shelters..... hunt for a good cause

[Barrell]

Ace archer, Pa will never be able to manage the deer herd unless theyknow what the kill is every year. They have no idea...How many, what sex, and what age and condition the kill is comprised of. The post cards are a joke. Everybody looses them or forgets to mail them in. They asume that they can figure the non reporting rate and them use a multiplier to come up with the kill.
They use an atiquated system of checking tags at butcher shops and then comparing those tags to the postcards that come in. The non reporting rate in some countys is 95% so they multiply the post cards by 20 times and say that scientificaly that is the kill.
We need check stations in PA. every hardware store, bar, or restaurant is chomping at the bit to become a check station. With check stations the wheight,age and the condition of the deer could be determined at least on opening day.
Without acurate data you cant be serious that PA gane commision uses scientific methods.

[ACEarcher]

When the PGC does a study they use a sampling area. This sampling area is a representation of the entire area you are studying. The cost to study an entire WMU is very high, not to mention the resources and man power to do so. The PGC is under funded enough. To actually have deer check-in stations in Pa would be a HUGE task to accomplish. Considering Pa has the highest hunter density than any other state in the country and currently tied for 2nd most hunters state next to Tx (we're tied with WI I think). The PGC would have to double their size maybe even triple their man power. If people would just report their kill yes it would make things a lot more easy, but they don't. Is this the PGC's fault..... No. The PGC does what they can with what they have to work with. The PGC's method's are better than most other states. Why else would they continue to be praised by scientific communities for they're excellent work. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=175220 Here you go!

[Ole 20 Point]

Thanks for taking the time to put all that down ACE. You are 1,000% correct. :thup: I just didn't have the patience to write it all down! :please:

[ACEarcher]

Thanks 20 point.

Barrell, if you have any more questions about the current management strategies of the PGC or about the current deer audit that is going on this press release should explain a lot about what is currently going on. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=175759

[Barrell]

Thanks 20 point.

Barrell, if you have any more questions about the current management strategies of the PGC or about the current deer audit that is going on this press release should explain a lot about what is currently going on. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=175759

The deer population and the birth rate are only parts of the management picture. Dont you at least agree that without an acurate number on the kill then they are just plugging guesses into the equations? And dont you agree that the data from check stations would be priceless to the biologists? I know for a fact that at least in my area ( Wyoming County) Businesses would volunteer to be check stations. Can you imagine the draw of customers to whatever businesses decide to become check stations. Within two years businesses would be offering to pay the PGC to become a check station.
If the PGC can not afford to man the stations the first day or two at least they could man some of them and have the volunteers record the wheight, sex, and antler base diameter at the other stations. Eventualy they could be taught to pull a tooth.
How does Texas , Michigan , and Wisconson handle it? And is their non reporting rate 95%?

[Makoman]

Barrell is right on the money. In NJ, the check in stations are all private businesses that volunteer year after year. PA could institute the same system. I know in McKean County there are several businesses that would be happy to assume those duties.

[ACEarcher]

Dont you at least agree that without an acurate number on the kill then they are just plugging guesses into the equations? So what your telling me you are 100% certain the the PGC just guesses the amount of deer harvest every year?????? The biologist do not need info from every single deer harvested. This is the reason why we have sampling and study areas. The PGC many times just goes to several butchers in the area and counts heads.

I don't know how TX WI and MI do it (could find out but tired from work), but all of those states have state runned wildlife groups. The PGC is an independed, non profit group. This helps insure the state can not abuse the hunters and the wildlife just to get monies.

[Makoman]

this helps insure the state can not abuse the hunters and the wildlife just to get monies.


surely you jest!!!!!!!!!!

[ACEarcher]

I jest not! Trust me you would be more upset if the state of Pennsylvania had total control.

[Barrell]

Having an acurate record of the kill is deer biology 101. Its not some optional information its ths basis of all deer management to not only know how many deer have been killed but are the weights up or down from previous years? What is the sex ratio? What are the ages? Some other info that is nice to have at least in study area:
How many of the does have been bred? Are they carying singles, twins, or triplets? What is the bucks antler base diameter?
Deer are not wheighed at butcher shops. Their teeth are not pulled for age. There are no wheights from previous years recorded to compare with. They only go there to try to figure out how many guys dont report their deer. But a butcher shop is a stupid place to figure that out. The reason is in the NE most guys butcher their own. And at least half the deer go for a ride south to be butchered closer to home. So when you go to a butcher shop to check tags you are only seeing a sliver of the total picture. I strongly belive, but have no proof ,that a hunter who brings his deer to a butcher is more inclined to send in the report card then a guy who butchers in his own garage. That is not figured into the non reporting rate.
Deer management is mostly math. There is a formula for figuring out what you need to know. But you have to have all the data to plug into the formula. The state of PA takes a wild guess on one of the most important numbers and the one that is easiest to get correct. The deer kill and the condition of those animals.

[ACEarcher]

Having an accurate record is very important I'll agree with you there. All it takes is the hunter harvest report card to be filled out.

Its not some optional information its ths basis of all deer management to not only know how many deer have been killed but are the weights up or down from previous years? What is the sex ratio? What are the ages? Some other info that is nice to have at least in study area:
How many of the does have been bred? Are they carying singles, twins, or triplets? What is the bucks antler base diameter?


All of these ideas would get us info, but not all of it is needed. Plus most of these studies have already been done in the past several years already. Your last comment on the antler base diameter. The only reason Pa would ever need that info is for "trophy management". This is not something the PGC pratices. They want older age classes, but untill the state implements a trophy management program the data isen't needed.

You have good ideas, but a study needs to be inplace to do all of these things. Not to mention the allocated monies to boot.

The reason is in the NE most guys butcher their own. And at least half the deer go for a ride south to be butchered closer to home.

Plenty of ppl state wide butcher their own deer. They just need to send in their report cards.

Deer management is mostly math. There is a formula for figuring out what you need to know. But you have to have all the data to plug into the formula. The state of PA takes a wild guess on one of the most important numbers and the one that is easiest to get correct.

White-Tail management is not "mostly math". It is all biology. We just use math as a tool to help us determine an outcome to produce results. The PGC never just pulls a number out of a hat and calls it that. That would be fraud. They are a professional agency that does the best they possibly can with the best that they have to do with.

[Ole 20 Point]

And if everything that was suggested was actually implemented the cost of licenses would triple or more. It ain't gonna happen otherwise.

[ACEarcher]

Yes, infact the license increase issue wasen't even brought up by the PGC. It was brought up by the commissions (the ones that used to be on the board). Now with the board changed some and a different chairman commissioner they want to see what this deer audit will prove before they will touch the license increase issue. They amount the that they want to raise it isen't much either.

[Ole 20 Point]

I KNOW I shouldn't say this and will prolly be crucified for it...but the PA license costs are FAR too low.

[Makoman]

Too low as compared to what/where?

[ACEarcher]

Every other state in this county! Nah, but MANY other states.

[Ole 20 Point]

Too low as compared to the budget the PGC needs to git-r-done RIGHT.

[Y-BUC-BILL]

Penna.never had and never will have an accurate count of it's deer herd.Years ago they came out with an opening day kill count by 4 o'cock in the afternoon.That would depend on weather conditions.I know this to be fact..Just remember,for every healthy doe you are shooting,you are killing 3 deer.Give us back antlered deer for two weeks and a three day doe season the following week.

[Makoman]

Amen. I'm in total agreement with Y-Buck.