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ACEarcher
01-01-2009, 11:30 PM
One vote for big bucks
Woods and Waters Intelligencer Journal
Published: Dec 31, 2008
15:50 EST

By P.J. REILLY, Staff Writer


•••

Anyone who wants Pennsylvania to become a true trophy whitetail state, raise your hand.

(My own arm is pointing skyward right now.)

I'm not talking about having a decent number of 120-class bucks running around.

I'm talking about having a legitimate shot, every time you go into the woods, at crossing paths with multiple bucks scoring 140 or better, and a very real possibility of bagging a Boone & Crockett class deer scoring 170 or better.

This is the type of hunting that trophy whitetail states such as Illinois, Iowa and Ohio offer.

Under the current deer management program and hunting regulations, Pennsylvania never will become a trophy whitetail state.


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There are just too many hunters here with too many opportunities to kill non-trophy-class bucks.

I'm not saying this as a criticism of the state Game Commission's management program, because, as the agency's chief deer biologist — Chris Rosenberry — told me, the program is not intended to produce trophy bucks of the caliber I'm talking about.

And I'm not suggesting that antler restrictions haven't improved the quality of our bucks. I'm saying they haven't led to a substantial increase — if any — in true trophy bucks.

And the only way I see that happening is if we limit the number of bucks that can be killed each year.

Yes, I'm suggesting that Pennsylvania, in an effort to produce a good number of true, trophy-class bucks scoring 140 and up, issue buck tags via lottery drawing — a move that would mean hunters would not be guaranteed a tag every year.

Let the stoning commence.

Jerry Feaser, the Game Commission's spokesman, said the agency actually considered this idea prior to 2002, but it was decided instead to raise the bar on bucks, as opposed to limiting the opportunity to hunt for them.

I am not a deer biologist, nor do I play one on TV.

Who I am is someone who has hunted throughout North America.
I have been to places where there are lots of big bucks, and Pennsylvania just isn't one of them.

In 20 years of hunting private property in Chester County during every season the state offers, my best Pennsylvania buck measures 126 inches.

I've hunted a total of 15 days in the Midwest over the past three years and I've shot three bucks that all score over 140.

Consider these statistics from the Boone & Crockett Club's record books.

From 2000 through 2007, Pennsylvania had 13 typical bucks entered, with the largest measuring just over 173 inches.

During that same period, Illinois hunters entered 259 typical bucks, with the largest scoring just under 199.

Illinois, in fact, placed 109 typical bucks in the Boone & Crockett record book from 2000-2007 that scored higher than Pennsylvania's top entry from that same period.

Pennsylvania has a total of 32 typical Boone & Crockett entries from all time, with the state record measuring just under 185 inches. That buck was killed back in 1974.

One hunter in the past 22 years has registered a Pennsylvania buck with Boone & Crockett that scores within 10 inches of that record.

And no hunter has cracked Pennsylvania's all-time top-10 list of typical Boone & Crockett bucks in 13 years.

Meanwhile, in our neighboring Ohio, 13 typical bucks scoring higher than Pennsylvania's all-time state record have been registered just since 2000.

Given these numbers, where are you going to go if you are a deer hunter interested in trophy antlers?

Pennsylvania just doesn't produce a lot of true, trophy-class bucks.

That doesn't mean there aren't any out there.

What it means is, the odds of tagging one here are extremely low and there are plenty of places where the odds are better.

Antler restrictions were instituted in Pennsylvania in 2002. Those rules did nothing to help grow the bucks that were killed that year, but from 2003 through 2007, five typical and seven nontypical bucks were entered in the Boone & Crockett record book.

From 1998 through 2002, nine typical and seven nontypical bucks were entered.

So under the current antler restrictions, Boone & Crockett entries actually have decreased.

Large areas of Pennsylvania have the food and cover and the genetics in the deer to produce trophy racks.

What our bucks lack is a reasonable chance to reach 4.5 and 5.5 years of age — the peak years for antler development, according to many experts.

With 900,000-plus hunters combing the woods with rifles for two weeks every year, it's easy to understand why bucks don't live long here.

(Yes, I'm leaving out the archery season, because data shows the majority of our bucks are killed in gun season.)

From 1990 through 1999, Pennsylvania deer hunters killed an average of 169,326 bucks per year. From 2002 through 2007, that figure dipped by 22 percent to 132,847.

But does that necessarily mean 22 percent of bucks are being saved every year?

We all know deer numbers overall have dropped since the 1990s. So it only stands to reason that the buck harvest would drop as well — with or without antler restrictions.

My point is, it's likely that a vast majority of the bucks we spare as 1.5-year-olds are simply being shot as 2.5-year-olds.

And you don't produce more true trophies that way.

The Game Commission ages thousands of hunter-killed deer every year. When biologists record the age of an antlered buck, it's listed either as a 1.5-year-old or as "2.5-year-old and older."

So there is no data to indicate if there are more 3.5-, 4.5- and 5.5-year-old deer now than before antler restrictions.

What if the Game Commission only issued 200,000 buck tags each year, compared to the 900,000-plus that are sold now?

Illinois this year issued just under 350,000 gun tags — some for bucks and some for does — via lottery, and the state is 10,000 square miles larger than Pennsylvania.

Illinois further limits the opportunity to kill bucks by restricting the use of each gun tag to only one county. Also, no rifles are allowed and the gun season only lasts seven days.

In Iowa — another state where rifles are banned — tags also are doled out via lottery and only about 190,000 hunters head afield for the gun season.

In North Dakota — the toughest state in the country in which to get a firearms deer tag — it can take five years or more to draw one of the state's 150,000 gun tags because they are so limited.

So hunters in these states each year kill far fewer bucks than Pennsylvania hunters, but the bucks they do kill tend to be far bigger than ours.

Bucks in these states have a good chance to grow and reach maturity because the opportunities to kill them are restricted, and because hunters who draw licenses to kill bucks know there are a lot of mature bucks running around, so they tend to voluntarily pass up small, young bucks.

If Pennsylvania limited our buck-hunting opportunities, I think you'd see our count of Boone & Crockett entries escalate.

But I don't think that's going to happen in my lifetime.

And is this even a direction a majority of hunters want to take?

If you've had the same idea as me or if you think it's the dumbest idea you've ever heard, send me a note, including your name and phone number, so I can verify who sent it.

I'll publish verifiable comments in a future column.

E-mail: preilly@lnpnews.com (preilly@lnpnews.com)

Link to article http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/232030 (http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/232030)

Just something I found very interesting. I thought I'd pass on to all of you.

Ole 20 Point
01-02-2009, 02:44 PM
I am all for varying levels of antler restrictions to increase the average size and age of a deer taken in PA...but I can't say I would at all be in favor of a lottery system or a limited opprtunity to even take a buck. The antler restriction changes have had a great positive effect on our area in NE PA as we have been seeing much nicer racks and more of them. Most hunters ARE NOT true trophy hunters. If that is what you want, then that is not what PA has ever been about nor would I like to see it go that route. You want the potential for a record book trophy every year? Then go to the states that produce them and have a great time. I'm happy in PA that we now see 120+ bucks...when I want something bigger for my wall, I'll go west.

skmag357
01-02-2009, 03:21 PM
I would like to see some sort of system put into place to limit the number of bucks taken in PA. It might be a welcome change. Even the antler restriction now is not the best, all they do is save really small racked bucks like spikes. Take for example opening day rifle, 3 years ago: I was hunting the edge of a swamp. A small 4 point (3 and 1) walks by at 8am. I don't shoot little scrub bucks like this anymore. He walks off and 10 minutes later I hear a shot right up the hill from me. Some other hunter decided this was a buck to take and shot him. He was legal but still, how many times can these deer be passed on before someone harvests them? The only way to reduce this would be to institute so sort of lottery system as explained above. This greatly increases the chance of the deer that I just mentioned surviving and possibly growing into a stud. People may start to think that it was hard enough to get the buck tag so why would I waste it on a small 4 point?? You can't control the number of hunters so why not control the number of buck tags???

ACEarcher
01-02-2009, 04:46 PM
IMO I don't think this would fly anytime soon in Pa. Pa is very traditional. Com'on who else has a flintlock season? The majority of Pa hunters don't care about harvesting a trophy ever year. They just want to get themselves a buck. The size of a bucks rack isen't on all the minds of Pa hunters. Sure they would like to get one, but trophy management in Pa isen't something IMO Pa hunters would like.

skmag357
01-02-2009, 05:04 PM
IMO I don't think this would fly anytime soon in Pa. Pa is very traditional. Com'on who else has a flintlock season? The majority of Pa hunters don't care about harvesting a trophy ever year. They just want to get themselves a buck. The size of a bucks rack isen't on all the minds of Pa hunters. Sure they would like to get one, but trophy management in Pa isen't something IMO Pa hunters would like.

I completely agree that it would not fly but it would be nice. You are right, some PA hunters just want a buck to say they shot a buck....didn't matter what size....

bowcrazy
01-02-2009, 05:04 PM
I think the land owners of pa have taken antler restrictions to the next level with the help of Gary Alt and PGC starting things off for us.I talk to a lot of land owners and they like whats happening with the bucks being bigger. They manage ther own properties and only take mature deer.I would be happy if they raised it to four pts on one side for the entire state.Plus get back to the old doe season after the buck season. No lottery just better management.

Makoman
01-02-2009, 06:25 PM
Limiting buck tags would certainly make it rough on the guys who have camps. If several members didn't draw a buck tag, the ones who did would not have the usual camaraderie that makes the buck season the most fun. I don't think many guys would buy an out of state license if they couldn't buck hunt. Our camp is in the "big woods" of NC PA and we have very little hunting pressure during the buck season. One reason is that there are very few deer to be hunted. We have taken some decent bucks in the last 2 years but not P & Y class. I seriously doubt that limiting the number of hunters in our WMU would substantially increase the number of older bucks. It might work in the more fertile areas of the state. I also question how the PGC would meet there annual budget requirements with a considerable loss of license revenue. Just my 2 cents.

Ole 20 Point
01-02-2009, 06:44 PM
Just wondering? Does anybody know how the antler restrictions in western PA are working out where it has always been four points on one side (I think?) to be legal? :huh:

ACEarcher
01-03-2009, 02:36 PM
The 4pt side restriction was instituted the same time the rest of the state went 3pt one saide. The heard in Western Pa is different due to the terrain. Western Pa has more of the glacier tilled soils like Ohio. Thus making the forage different. The whole point of AR is not to grow bigger bucks. The PGC has never to this day instituted a management plain to grow bigger or trophy deer. The point restriction was implimented to help get more buck to maturity. Before AR the majority of our buck harvested consisted of 1.5 yr old buck. Now with AR more (not all) buck get a chance to reach a higher age class. Pa has the most hunters per sq mile than any of state. Even beating TX and WI.

Ole 20 Point
01-03-2009, 04:14 PM
The 4pt side restriction was instituted the same time the rest of the state went 3pt one saide. The heard in Western Pa is different due to the terrain. Western Pa has more of the glacier tilled soils like Ohio. Thus making the forage different.
What I would like to know is how do the hunters in that part of the state feel about the changes that were made? Has the quality of bucks improved? Worse? Was it all a waste of time? :huh:

The whole point of AR is not to grow bigger bucks. The PGC has never to this day instituted a management plain to grow bigger or trophy deer. Sorry but I have to disagree in part. If I recall correctly, when Gary Alt was selling this AR change to the hunters throughout PA at least ONE of his big sales pitches was that this would produce bigger bucks. It turns out he was right. :thup:

Pa has the most hunters per sq mile than any of state. Even beating TX and WI.What was your point with this statement?

ACEarcher
01-03-2009, 10:33 PM
What I would like to know is how do the hunters in that part of the state feel about the changes that were made? Has the quality of bucks improved? Worse? Was it all a waste of time? :huh:

In the 4 years I spent in western Pa I heard the same amount of people love it and hate it. Just like here in Eastern Pa. From all my friends properties that I've hunted on they all said the quality of buck had improved. "In western Pennsylvania, however, a 3-point restriction would protect less than a third of all yearling bucks, whereas a 4-points to a side restriction protects more than half."

Sorry but I have to disagree in part. If I recall correctly, when Gary Alt was selling this AR change to the hunters throughout PA at least ONE of his big sales pitches was that this would produce bigger bucks. It turns out he was right. :thup:

Yes, AR has produced more larger buck in Pa because we've allowed bucks to reach older age classes. Larger racked bucks though was not a factor in deciding on AR. Call it a by-product. At 2 1/2yrs old a buck will only show 40% of his true potential. Having the majority of our 1 1/2 yr old bucks shot every year was not a good thing for our heard throughout the state. It's always been about a healthier heard (older deer included) not trying to produce older buck. But when you have older buck you can have larger racks. "Finally, from research data, we know that if yearling bucks are not shot, they are likely to survive to become adults. So, success of antler restrictions comes down to hunter acceptance and behavior."

Here shown is the data of harvested buck ages in Pa:
Years…………..1 ½ years old…………..2 ½ years and older……………% of harvest 2 ½ and older
83-87.…………….110,803.…………………29,137.…………………………..20.8 %
88-92.…………….132,870.…………………30,300.…………………………..18.6 %
93-97.…………….136,654.…………………30,271.…………………………..18.1 %
98-02.…………….148,058.…………………41,483.…………………………..21.9 %
03-07.………………68,348.………………..57,334.……………………………45.9 %
AR started in 02 hunting season.

Pretaining to genetics:

"A recent review of the scientific literature on genetics in hunted populations concluded that there is little evidence available to suggest that hunting, including selective harvests, has long-term genetic consequences. One reason for this conclusion is the combination of genetics and harvest regulations apparently diminish suspected negative impacts. For example, if antler restrictions did selectively harvest "better" bucks, antlerless harvests are generally nonselective in their removal of "better" or "poorer" does. Thus, a continued mixing of "better" and "poorer" genes throughout the deer herd reduces the amount of change.
We do know that genetics is just one of many factors that determine the number of points on a yearling buck. A buck's mother and her genes, nutrition, health and other factors affect antler points. All these factors create a situation where there is no strong evidence that the new antler restriction will hurt or improve genetics of Pennsylvania's deer herd."

What was your point with this statement?

Pa has the most hunters per sq mile than any of state. Even beating TX and WI.

Just stating and interesting fact.

BarnesX.308
01-06-2009, 01:45 PM
Limiting buck tags would certainly make it rough on the guys who have camps. If several members didn't draw a buck tag, the ones who did would not have the usual camaraderie that makes the buck season the most fun.

That was going to be my point exactly. Only two out of 10 guys would get to go to camp each year. Guys would quit. The whole deer camp experience would be ruined. If you eliminated the concurrent doe season as well, 80% of PA hunters would have nothing to look forward to on the Monday after Thanksgiving. After 27 years of opening days, it would crush me to not dream about that day.:(

Also, you want to talk about declining hunter participation? :eek:

A good idea in theory, but not for most Pennsylvanians. I'll keep things the way they are. Makes that trophy buck even more special.

One more question - how many of those 200,000 tags go to non-residents?

RUSS0079
01-07-2009, 04:01 PM
I love having a smart wildlife biologist on the posts. I always smile when Adam goes on a tangent with numbers... Keep the restrictions... Me and BarnesX know where the big ones are...

ACEarcher
01-07-2009, 09:27 PM
Thanks Russ I try.:D

Ole 20 Point
01-07-2009, 10:12 PM
Appreciate the follow up to my questions ace...thx.

ACEarcher
01-07-2009, 11:17 PM
No Problem 20pt

50 yard fred
01-30-2009, 10:54 AM
i was just told that pgc is gonna open up a machine gun season, so that they can line the pockets of all the gun makers with some green backs....
lets worry about the issues up state wit the does first before the bigger bucks, i for one wont kill unless i want to mount i dont shoot little ones unless there very unique but we dont have the farmlands being used to grow whitetales rather they are apest in ill like u staed they are bigger just like plots how many farmers do u know that grow whitetales the farmers i know shoot them ang eat them:bow:
believe me im with ya i would love to see big deer and wouldnt even mind if it was 5 to a side.

Barrell
02-07-2009, 12:09 AM
Id like to see four points on one side statewide. Politicaly the idea of a lottery wont fly. The most important part of big buck management is to stop killing the button bucks. Thats another thing that wont fly. To many guys shoot first and see what they got later during doe.

Ole 20 Point
02-07-2009, 09:00 AM
I agree totally about trying as hard as possible not to take button bucks! Since we had started purposefully trying to be as careful as possible not to take buttons a number of years ago we cut way back on those kills. It happens but hardly at all anymore. Example, I think the first or second year we conciously were looking to avoid buttons before shooting a "doe" and I had read that in a group of deer running/moving that often the button would be the lead "doe"...WRONG! I had three come running by that year and when they slowed I purposely shot the second in line...yup it was a nice size button damnit! Anyway we've taken very few since then and those are bucks that then live for another day which is the whole point.

fishhunter99
02-11-2009, 10:54 PM
I have been hunting now for 40 years. I have harvested a dozen bucks or more maybe. Does at least 20 over the years, more since they have the buck and doe season. I hunt the big woods of Monroe County and Pike. I used to see heards of deer. Groups of deer that would hang together season after season. It has changed over the last 15 years, now if you see a deer on some days you are lucky. But I also have not seen acorns over the last 3 years. I look for acorn shells, what are the deer eating? The gypsy moths are having a feild day on the forest. The forest can not take the presure from them or the deer. I have walked in fenced in acres that keep deer out. The PGC or the State Forest Service has several multi acre plots, fences in to keep deer out It is lush in the summer and fall. The out side of the area has no low growing forest, looks like it was trimmed 4 to 5 feet high. I agree that we need to change our buck to doe ratio. I have found some of the deer I have shot filled with corn. This is a bad thing for deer but it keeps some people happy to see and shot them from home at a feed pile. That is wrong, and it is legal now in our SE areas only to thin the herd. How can the PGC be so wrong to allow this when it is unhealthy for the deer.
This state of Pa is a meat hunting state, I am a meat hunter. I want a mature doe or a legal buck. The competion is big to harvest a deer and that is what drives the PGC. We the hunters are what keeps the PGC in business,and only hunters. WE have many acres to hunt in all counties. I am happy to hunt in PA. Lets all work together to protect this land.
As far a trophy hunting, it has its place. If you want one find him. If you can not find him make a home for him. Grow feed plots that are healthy for them. Good food and hiding places in an area and you can have all the trohpy hunting you want.
Next year I will be hunting closer to home. My yard, I saw a nice 7 in October on a sunday. I was talking to a local who I knew was hunting only by his truck habbits and the time of year. I made it a point to catch up with him. I was right he has a few proporties with enough area to bow hunt. He told me that he has a few deer he has been watching, I told him about the 7 and he said he has seen him but he hangs with a much larger deer. I just got permission to hunt next season with a bribe of hello my name is, and a few packs of deer chops and I am your neighbor. I think we need to focuse on the changes and look for the deer. Not where we want them be to but where they live now.
Sorry a few red wines and a long day in a chair at the office and I am rambaling.
This is a great site to put out our questions and get some feed back, lets keep it up.

ACEarcher
02-12-2009, 10:40 PM
Corn is still a viable food source for deer. It does not give them much, but in the dead of winter it helps. The reasoning behind using bait in 5C is more to help hunters lure deer off of areas that are not accessable by hunters to areas that are so hunters may harvest. We are over-populated with deer in special regs areas. This is just another tool to help hunters control the population. It isen't the best for the deer, but a bait pile only out during hunting season doesn't make much of a difference.

Sorry a few red wines and a long day in a chair at the office and I am rambaling.
This is a great site to put out our questions and get some feed back, lets keep it up.

LOL ramble on brother! We're all here to do the same. :thup: Yeah it is a great sight!:D:cool:

Barrell
02-13-2009, 04:11 PM
I agree totally about trying as hard as possible not to take button bucks! Since we had started purposefully trying to be as careful as possible not to take buttons a number of years ago we cut way back on those kills. It happens but hardly at all anymore. Example, I think the first or second year we conciously were looking to avoid buttons before shooting a "doe" and I had read that in a group of deer running/moving that often the button would be the lead "doe"...WRONG! I had three come running by that year and when they slowed I purposely shot the second in line...yup it was a nice size button damnit! Anyway we've taken very few since then and those are bucks that then live for another day which is the whole point.
Six month old deer both doe and buttons have a square profile from the side. Once they reach 18 months old. The body is a rectangle. Just dont shoot square deer and you will never shoot another button.