Crossbow issues!!

[coqui]

:mad::mad::mad: Now many of you are not going to like what I have to say, and I by far am not trying to come across as the almighty high and mighty, but in my humble opinion, anyone to using a crossbow during the regularly scheduled archery season is just a sign of laziness and should not be allowed. How many so called hunters would hunt with a crossbow during the rifle/shotgun season? Bet you could count them on one hand. Here in PA a form must be signed by a physician and submitted to the game commission before a permit is issued. Guess what? A vast majority of people have received their permit under false pretenses. Perment injury is the key word here and not just that you have a sore shoulder. Hell, it takes almost as much effort to cock a crossbow as it does to draw a bow. I have no issue with permently handicapped (wheel chair bound, one arm, partly blind etc) people. And yes you can draw and shoot a bow with one arm. We had a fellow who once regularly came to our clubs 3-D shoots and competed with one arm! I have taken my fair share of game with a Longbow, Recurve, Compound and even a rifle and pistol. Each one has a place and each one has its advantages. I have no issue deer hunting with a crossbow other than the archery season.
In fact they are fun to shoot and only slightly more difficult to hunt with than with a rifle. or pistol, but I have to draw the line at using them during the archery season.
I have been very actively evolved in all shooting sports probably for longer than most of you have been alive so I have been there and done that! Anyone can go to a doctor and have them sign a crossbow application form, pick up a crossbow once or twice before the season opens and hit a deer. A few issues about the crossbow and crossbow hunters. crossbow manufactures claim their bows shoot fast and they do. Actually they shoot an velocity in the vicinity of around 300 to 340 fps. The problem lies within the capabilities of the crossbow. In comparison its light weight bolt sheds its velocity faster than an average 29 inch arrow shot through a bow at an average velocity of 270 to 300 fps. Which in turn means les Kinetic energy released at the point of impact which directly correlates to penetration. Bolt stability is another issue that I briefly touch upon. Initially crossbow hunters used pins on their equipment similar to archers (please note that I am trying to maintain a difference between Archers and crossbow hunters). Take a look at what’s out there today! You would be hard pressed to find a crossbow hunter that did not have a rifle scope of some type mounted on their crossbow. What I am driving at, is all this leads up to a level of false confidence that becomes engrained in the mind of the crossbow shooters. Now they think those shots out to 40 yards and beyond are well within there limits, while in fact just the opposite occurs. For those of you familiar with bare shaft and paper tuning with broadheads is all about, I have seen well tuned bows shoot a broadhead tipped bare shaft much more true then fletched bolts with field points fired through a crossbow. Ok I have said enough for now, but there is much, much more.

["String Music"]

I agree....IF you are to allow them in the state....They should not be in archery season!!!!!

[Bigoneslurk]

i have no problem with the people who want to use crossbows but your statement about the kinetic energy on the crossbow is wrong on the crossbows i have delt with the arrows were heavier than regular arrows no lighter like you say their for the ke is greater than a compund bow

[coqui]

:razz: I beg to differ with your comment relating to my previous post about crossbows and ft/lbs of energy. Let’s compare apples to apples. Take an Easton 2216 which has been pretty much the standard for many years for a crossbow bolt. The typical speed of bolt fired from a crossbow is 300 ft/sec with a typical length of 20 inches. An Easton 2216 shaft weighs in at 12 grains per inch which equals 240 grains, add a 125 grain broadhead and you end up with 325 grains of weight. Add another 26 grains for vanes, knock and insert and you end up with 391 grains total bolt weight. Conversely the identical shot from a compound bow at 270 fps with an arrow at 29 inches (AMO standard) with the same broadhead, nock, vanes and insert equals 499 grains per inch. Now using 499 grains vs. 325 grains the energy in ft/lbs equals 78.6 ft/lbs for the crossbow bolt vs. 83.2 ft/lbs for the arrow. That’s only a difference of 4.6 ft/lbs of energy, Not much right? Now keep in mind that these velocities and energy in ft/lbs are calculated at the bow and not down range. I have been involved in testing of down range velocities out to 100 yards and yes that 4.6 lbs of energy difference starts to drop dramatically for crossbow bolts at distances beyond 15 yards. Yes they both start to loose energy, but the bolt looses its energy at a much higher rate then standard arrow shot from a bow. All of this has in fact been proven time and time again with a little bit of algebra, a good chronograph and a scale you to could spend the time and come up with the same results. Now my point is not trying to debunk the use of crossbows with all this technical mumbo crap. They are indeed fun to shoot, and without doubt under the correct conditions and in the hands of a proficient user they are in fact lethal and effective hunting weapons. My point is, unless you are truly physically disabled and you have the urge to use a crossbow by all means use it, but don’t wimp out use it during the archery season.

[Bigoneslurk]

i cant argue with your numbers but i no on my dads excalibur cross bow has a minmum arrow weight of over 400 grains i dont rember the exact number.
however i also agree with you about them being whimps but if its what they wanna do then who am i to judge. i no as long as i can pull back a compound thats what i will shoot :fight:

[R & R]

My point is, unless you are truly physically disabled and you have the urge to use a crossbow by all means use it, but don’t wimp out use it during the archery season.
Now here is where my cristal ball into the future shatters. Its none of your biz what piece of archery equipment the guy in the stand next to you uses. Now you feel ppl. are "whimping" out if they use xbows during archery season so what you are saying is that everybody has to have the same belifes as you or they are not real hunters.
This mentality sounds very close to a group of ppl that don't eat meat & like to pet fuzzy animals where as they have to force their belifes down everybody eles throats.
Good luck this year.

[coqui]

:fight:
To the above poster “R &R” Wimping out, laziness it all applies I can even think of a few more choice words to use but I am trying to keep this civil. Apparently you don’t understand the dynamics of this whole issue. Everyone has an opinion and has the right to use whatever equipment they choose as long as it is legal. And yes, it is a lot of my business when a guy in the stand next to me uses a piece of equipment that he thinks can kill out to distances beyond the capabilities of their crossbow and their own personal abilities. You can’t deny that a vast majority of crossbow shooters probably have not even touched their equipment since last year. Just pick it up and look through a scope,,, what a joke! As far as your statement
“This mentality sounds very close to a group of ppl that don't eat meat & like to pet fuzzy animals where as they have to force their belifes down everybody eles throats”

That’s so outrageous that It doesn’t even merit comment. My beliefs are mine and a vast majority of true archers think the same way. Let me give you two quotes. “Opinions are like as***es everybody has one” and “Never get into a pissing contest with a Skunk.” Oh and by the way thanks for offering me good luck this season but I will leave the luck behind and count more upon an archers skill!

[PhilCVG]

Coqui,

I agree with some of what you say, but if you think that everyone who hunts the early archery season with a compound bow is a "true archer", I think you need to spend a night at Dicks or even one of the local sports shops.

There is plenty of clueless folks hunting in all the seasons. I once had a guyI was shooting next to at an indoor range tell me he "tries not to take shots over 50 yards". This was coming from a guy who was shooting 10 inch groups at 20 yards with a 25 year old, 40 inch axle to axle round wheel bow. Do you think he knew his capabilities?

My feeling is a clueless fellow with a compound is safer than a clueless fellow with a crossbow, but both exist.

[njbowhunter]

Will crossbows be aloud during this winter bow season Jan 1 2009 or not untill next fall season

[ub1243]

there are no changes this hunting season, 08-09.
they will be making a lot of changes for the 09-10 season.

besides the crossbow change there is the dog proof traps:thup:, a longer night season on k9's:thup:, and the early start rabbit season:thdown:

all of this has to pass the council first. let the votes hear your opinion.

[R & R]

besides the crossbow change there is the dog proof traps
Tell me more.

[Drenalin1]

What next exploding tips. How bout full auto weapons for the gun season. There is a time and a place for x bows just not during regular bow season. They have scopes and much greater ranges than primitive weapons like the compound bow, therefore they should be in a different class. R & R you are a confused individual. I never heard anyone babble bulls*** like you. :nuts:

[Drenalin1]

Oh Yeah GOOD LUCK ThIS SEASON:thup:

[R & R]

What next exploding tips. How bout full auto weapons for the gun season. There is a time and a place for x bows just not during regular bow season. They have scopes and much greater ranges than primitive weapons like the compound bow, therefore they should be in a different class. R & R you are a confused individual. I never heard anyone babble bulls*** like you. :nuts:
Grow up. Its not about you or your deer. Its about growing our sport.

[jross]

I may buy a crossbow next year. Having set up many bows in the past, way too many people show up 2 or 3 days of the season to get their rigs "tuned" up. The worst was one guy who wanted his arrows shortened and when I began to remove the inserts, I found every arrow was bent to some degree. When I told him that he said 'No wonder I can't hit nothin". People like that are poster boys for the animal rights groups. I would rather shoot my bow, but the shoulder pain at this old age of 67 gets worse each year and don't tell me about getting into shape because I still pay ice hockey. It is not what we use to kill an animal, but that we just do it as humanely as possible. Killing an animal is not possible unless one has the skill to put oneself in position to do so and that is where proficiency stands out. The Wall Township meeting recently shows what unity of our brethren can do, while this infighting of class distinction is fodder for our opponents.

[coqui]

:wave: All these discussions are great, they are very stimulating and informative to see both sides of the coin.

To PhilCVG It seems that most folks responding to my post are in agreement with me, but I never ment to imply that everyone who hunts during the early archery season is proficient with their equipment. If that’s your interpretation then I apologize. Your comment about a clueless fellow is right on. And that’s half of my argument. Other than that I agree with your comments.

To Drenalin1 your right on! BTW I shot a Drenalin LD at Lancaster archery a few months ago, really sweet if I can get up a few bucks I just may buy one

To R&R What else would you like to know? And by the way you finally said something I can agree with.

[coqui]

:wave: All these discussions are great, they are very stimulating and informative to see both sides of the coin.

To PhilCVG It seems that most folks responding to my post are in agreement with me, but I never implied that everyone who hunts during the early archery season is proficient with their equipment. If that’s your interpretation then I apologize. Your comment about a clueless fellow is right on. And that’s half of my argument. Other than that I agree with your comments.
To Drenalin1 your right on! BTW I shot a Drenalin LD at Lancaster archery a few months ago, really sweet if I can get up a few bucks I just may buy one
To R&R What else would you like to know? And by the way you finally said something I can agree with.
:wave:

[coqui]

:rolleyes: opps!! sorry for the double post

[Uncle Buck 31]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my comments, but I am sure someone will question what I have to say, Its OK thats why we live in america. I believe that they should make a crossbow season as opposed to making the availabilty of it during the current seasons. I will not buy a crossbow and will always hunt with my compound bow. Lets face it when they came out with inline muzzleloaders everyone bought one and when we changed from recurves to compounds, we had yet another choice to make. Technology is always going to push us to other limits. Lets look on the bright side as mentioned earlier. Maybe some of these marginal bow shooters will be able to ethically kill deer and not mame or not find the ones they have been wounding for years.

[Cableguy657]

When the compound bow came out did the same discussions arise from the traditional archers.:huh:
I am sure they did.

[ACEarcher]

The main reason for using crossbows in the special regs areas is a deer mangement tool. Now, I DO NOT use a crossbow in hunting. Frankly, I've been around plently, but have no sense to want to shoot one or hunt with it. Call it personal preference if you want. I enjoy my Mathews Switchback XT too much I guess. My father on the other-hand enojoys hunting with his stick (traditional longbow). He's always told me "why do you think Baskin & Robbins made 31 different favors of icecream? Because everyone likes something different. As for people who do not practice enough or maintain their equipment enough that isen't right, but I hope some day they learn or someone teaches them right. Till then they won't know.

Ahhhh it's so nice to be back at Bass Barn cough cough I mean Buck Barn:argue::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[bluecollar$]

They should have a crossbow week....

Lazy is right,now all the shotgun week idiots and yahoos will be crowding an already over crowded woods. Dispicable move by the state and all who voted to approve it. :mad:
Everyone I talked to at a 3-d shoot this weekend said they are against it.

[R & R]

Lazy is right,now all the shotgun week idiots and yahoos
Great tude toward your fellow hunters:(. Best of liuck for YOUR season.